Two honest questions for Bible scholars...

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by tooblue

...for they were reckless and the online personification of Barbara Gordons signature line...

TB, I often exemplify my own signature line in the worst way. But in spite of any ironic conviction of my own behavior, I couldn't resist it when I saw it on Aaron's blog.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

It is invariably burnished with myth. Interpretive is a fine though probably not wholly encompassing description of history. Herodotus is known as the first historian. No one claims Homer or J. was the first historian. These distictions which have persisted for millenia have meaning. Still, Herodotus' work is more than tinged with myth. But labelling all history as simply "fiction" is a dangerous exercise.

Dramatic yes, dangerous no … Human kind is incapable of impartiality or objectivity when recording history. Facts included in historical accounts may be considered ‘truth’. How such ‘truths’ are strung together, mingled with supposition and prejudice is the art form known as fiction.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Never apologize for being a peevish ignorant fool. I don't.

Waters is being humble. I can attest he board mails me all the time apologizing for being a peevish ignorant fool after I set him straight.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by Chapel-Hill-Coug

Okay, here goes then:

1 Nephi 19:22-23, Nephi begins to read from the Brass Plates... "I did read unto them that which was written by the Prophet Isaiah, for I did liken all scriptures...". He then goes on to read passages from 2nd Isaiah, beginning with Isaiah 48.

I don't care how much you get sidetracked on abridgment this or redaction that. Nephi reads from the brass plates, which were, according to the text, made before 600 BCE. Second Isaiah was probably written around the 530s.

Why is this problem so hard to understand???? Talking about abridgments and editing, as interesting as that is, does NOTHING to contribute to this issue, which is the only issue I brought up in the first place.

Many of the scriptures preceding and following what you have quoted must be read to fully appreciate my point of view. It is clear to me that he read, pondered and then WROTE down HIS thoughts, or his inspiration ... he did not merely COPY word for word what he was reading.

Scriptues of utmost importance:

6. Nevertheless, I do not awrite anything upon plates save it be that I think it be bsacred. And now, if I do err, even did they err of old; not that I would excuse myself because of other men, but because of the cweakness which is in me, according to the flesh, I would excuse myself.

18 And I, Nephi, have written these things unto my people, that perhaps I might persuade them that they would aremember the Lord their Redeemer.
19 Wherefore, I speak unto all the house of Israel, if it so be that they should obtain athese things.
20 For behold, I have workings in the spirit, which doth aweary me even that all my joints are weak, for those who are at Jerusalem; for had not the Lord been merciful, to show unto me concerning them, even as he had prophets of old, I should have perished also.
21 And he surely did show unto the aprophets of old all things bconcerning them; and also he did show unto many concerning us; wherefore, it must needs be that we know concerning them for they are written upon the plates of brass.

Then in 22 he states; “I, Nephi, did teach my brethren these things; and it came to pass that I did read many things to them, which were engraven upon the aplates of brass”

23 he states; “And I did read many things unto them which were written in the abooks of Moses; but that I might more fully persuade them to believe in the Lord their Redeemer I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet bIsaiah;”

READ to them, not write to them. He then writes down what he has read and taught and sites the books of Moses as well as Isaiah.

The entire chapter …




1 Nephi 19

1 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded me, wherefore I did make plates of ore that I might engraven upon them the arecord of my people. And upon the plates which I made I did bengraven the record of my cfather, and also our journeyings in the wilderness, and the prophecies of my father; and also many of mine own prophecies have I engraven upon them.
2 And I knew not at the time when I made them that I should be commanded of the Lord to make athese plates; wherefore, the record of my father, and the genealogy of his fathers, and the more part of all our proceedings in the wilderness are engraven upon those first plates of which I have spoken; wherefore, the things which transpired before I made bthese plates are, of a truth, more particularly made mention upon the first plates.
3 And after I had made these plates by way of commandment, I, Nephi, received a commandment that the ministry and the prophecies, the more plain and precious parts of them, should be written upon athese plates; and that the things which were written should be kept for the instruction of my people, who should possess the land, and also for other bwise purposes, which purposes are known unto the Lord.
4 Wherefore, I, Nephi, did make a record upon the aother plates, which gives an account, or which gives a greater account of the wars and contentions and destructions of my people. And this have I done, and commanded my people what they should do after I was gone; and that these plates should be handed down from one generation to another, or from one prophet to another, until further commandments of the Lord.
5 And an account of my amaking these plates shall be given hereafter; and then, behold, I proceed according to that which I have spoken; and this I do that the more sacred things may be bkept for the knowledge of my people.
6 Nevertheless, I do not awrite anything upon plates save it be that I think it be bsacred. And now, if I do err, even did they err of old; not that I would excuse myself because of other men, but because of the cweakness which is in me, according to the flesh, I would excuse myself.
7 For the things which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others set at anaught and trample under their feet. Yea, even the very God of Israel do men btrample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words—they set him at naught, and chearken not to the voice of his counsels.
8 And behold he acometh, according to the words of the angel, in bsix hundred years from the time my father left Jerusalem.
9 And the world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they aspit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving bkindness and his clong-suffering towards the children of men.
10 And the aGod of our fathers, who were bled out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the cGod of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, dyieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of ewicked men, to be flifted up, according to the words of gZenock, and to be hcrucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a isepulchre, according to the words of jZenos, which he spake concerning the three days of kdarkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the lhouse of Israel.
11 For thus spake the prophet: The Lord God surely shall avisit all the house of Israel at that day, some with his bvoice, because of their righteousness, unto their great joy and salvation, and others with the cthunderings and the lightnings of his power, by tempest, by fire, and by dsmoke, and evapor of fdarkness, and by the opening of the gearth, and by hmountains which shall be carried up.
12 And aall these things must surely come, saith the prophet bZenos. And the crocks of the earth must rend; and because of the dgroanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers.
13 And as for those who are at Jerusalem, saith the prophet, they shall be ascourged by all people, because they crucify the God of Israel, and turn their hearts aside, rejecting signs and wonders, and the power and glory of the God of Israel.
14 And because they turn their hearts aside, saith the prophet, and have adespised the Holy One of Israel, they shall wander in the flesh, and perish, and become a bhiss and a cbyword, and be dhated among all nations.
15 Nevertheless, when that day cometh, saith the prophet, that they ano more bturn aside their hearts against the Holy One of Israel, then will he remember the ccovenants which he made to their fathers.
16 Yea, then will he remember the aisles of the sea; yea, and all the people who are of the house of Israel, will I bgather in, saith the Lord, according to the words of the prophet Zenos, from the four quarters of the earth.
17 Yea, and all the earth shall asee the salvation of the Lord, saith the prophet; every nation, kindred, tongue and people shall be blessed.
18 And I, Nephi, have written these things unto my people, that perhaps I might persuade them that they would aremember the Lord their Redeemer.
19 Wherefore, I speak unto all the house of Israel, if it so be that they should obtain athese things.
20 For behold, I have workings in the spirit, which doth aweary me even that all my joints are weak, for those who are at Jerusalem; for had not the Lord been merciful, to show unto me concerning them, even as he had prophets of old, I should have perished also.
21 And he surely did show unto the aprophets of old all things bconcerning them; and also he did show unto many concerning us; wherefore, it must needs be that we know concerning them for they are written upon the plates of brass.
22 Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, did teach my brethren these things; and it came to pass that I did read many things to them, which were engraven upon the aplates of brass, that they might know concerning the doings of the Lord in other lands, among people of old.
23 And I did read many things unto them which were written in the abooks of Moses; but that I might more fully persuade them to believe in the Lord their Redeemer I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet bIsaiah; for I did cliken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our dprofit and learning.
24 Wherefore I spake unto them, saying: Hear ye the words of the prophet, ye who are a aremnant of the house of Israel, a bbranch who have been broken off; chear ye the words of the prophet, which were written unto all the house of Israel, and liken them unto yourselves, that ye may have hope as well as your brethren from whom ye have been broken off; for after this manner has the prophet written.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by Chapel-Hill-Coug

If we're talking about 19th century cut and paste, then yes, I agree, but nobody has stated such. My impression is that the whole discussion revolved around the way that the historical question might be resolved through ancient editing, thus leaving room for 2nd Isaiah, and the historicity of the BOM.

I'm not interested in proving the historicity of the BOM.

[tooblue]

Several hundred years later we then have Mormon, reading, pondering and teaching what Nephi wrote, and in-turn making an abridgment.

Abridge: to shorten by omissions while retaining the basic contents

Compilation: the act of compiling: the compilation of documents.

[Archaea]

An interesting sidenote to the passages quoted by tooblue from Nephi, is he read the passages to them.

In Ehrman's book, the good doctor points out that for the most part, the greater part of the population was illiterate, and reading actually mean hearing somebody else read. He goes to a number of studies that suggests the most literate of the Jewish times had 10 to 15% of "literate" persons. In most events and times, slaves and others paid to read, did the reading. However, for Christians, the scribe and the reader was somebody who wanted the information.

It is interesting, because this passage suggests an action of reading out loud which was the common practice in antiquities. Perhaps it was commonplace in the 19th century I don't know.

Just an aside.

[Chapel-Hill-Coug]

Originally Posted by tooblue

My intent is not to get personal and I will cease and desist in this religion thread unless I have more time to be more careful with my words, for they were reckless and the online personification of Barbara Gordons signature line.

I posted quickly before running off to prepare to teach class and did not fully formulate my thoughts, hence the ‘wordiness without saying anything’.

It's a good excuse for my behavior but doesn’t excuse the broad, aggressive tone of my post. I have no desire to be read as a peevish, impassioned, ignorant fool. Yet trying to force myself back into the discussion that is what I have become.

Carry on and please ignore my outburst.

It's really no big deal. I have no problem with you tooblue. Peace.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by BlueHair

SIEQ,

I enjoy reading your posts. It's obvious that I'm not even in your intelligence ballpark. Would you mind clearing up a few things for me?

#1-You stated you believe your ordinances are valid. Do you believe that other faith's ordinances are or could be valid?

#2 - Do you believe the BOM is purely faith promoting stories, meaning the Nephites, Lamanites, and other BOM people never existed? Do you believe those people existed, but the stories aren't historically accurate regarding dates and timelines?

#3 - Is it possible in your view, that the BOMs sole purpose was to bring people to Christ? I've wondered for some time if the church lost it's way in regards to the BOM. Maybe it was never intended to be taken literally.

What do you think?

Wow. I take a day to get some work done and look what I miss out on! I will get to your questions but it make take some time. I must say, though, that I love these questions. They are the sorts of questions that are usually not given voice, but that hover in the minds of many thoughtful religious people.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by BlueHair

SIEQ,

I enjoy reading your posts. It's obvious that I'm not even in your intelligence ballpark. Would you mind clearing up a few things for me?

#1-You stated you believe your ordinances are valid. Do you believe that other faith's ordinances are or could be valid?

#2 - Do you believe the BOM is purely faith promoting stories, meaning the Nephites, Lamanites, and other BOM people never existed? Do you believe those people existed, but the stories aren't historically accurate regarding dates and timelines?

#3 - Is it possible in your view, that the BOMs sole purpose was to bring people to Christ? I've wondered for some time if the church lost it's way in regards to the BOM. Maybe it was never intended to be taken literally.

What do you think?

Truth and knowledge are sublime, yet it is in seeking them that we both lose ourselves and find ourselves. To give up the search for these is to give up on one’s own integrity, and I will never do that.

As to my answers:

1. In short, my answer is “yes.”

Joseph Smith once noted that if he could not persuade someone to Mormonism he would “lift them up and in their own way too…” Surely he wasn’t just trying to help them intensify their damnation. It sounds more to me like loving your neighbor as yourself. He wrote to Stephen Douglas that Mormons are “ready to believe all true principles that exist, as they are manifest and treasure them up,” so he clearly believed that the search for truth could take one far and wide. A scrupulous reading of even the very culturally inflected scriptures suggests a few instances of God working outside of known channels, including the story of Balaam son of Beor, and Matthew’s Magi (which looks to this reader like an intentional allusion on Matthew’s part to the Balaam story). The parable of the Good Samaritan places the Samaritan in the role of savior (Luke 10:29-37). If the brand of sectarianism that is so prevalent today were projected back onto the scriptures the questions would be troubling. Was Alma’s priesthood legitimate? Because John the Baptist was an Essene does that mean that because he baptized Jesus, Jesus was an Essene? (and that’s if we believe Mark, Matthew, and Nephi over Luke—who has JtB being arrested before Jesus’ baptism--and John, who actually doesn’t say JtB baptized Jesus). Further, consider Jesus’ response to John in Mark 9:38-40:

“John said to him, ‘Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.’ But Jesus said, ‘Do not stop him; for no one who does a deed of power in my name will be able soon afterwards to speak evil of me. Whoever is not against us is for us. For truly I tell you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ will by no means lose the reward.”

And as recorded in Luke 9:49-50:

“John answered, ‘Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.’ But Jesus said to him, ‘Do not stop him; for whosoever is not against you is for you.’”

Also consider what Paul wrote in Romans 2:14-16:

“When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.”

There are, of course, many scriptural passages that are in tension with these ideas, scriptures like Exodus 12:29, Exodus 32:28, Exodus 34:11, Numbers 21:34-35, Numbers 31, 34, and 35, passages in Joshua, and the scriptures that declare exclusive and organized priesthood authority, but I don’t think those mean that great concourses of people don’t have “what the law requires written on their hearts,” and that ordinances of many stripes and types could help them do that, although perhaps through other signifiers and without them recognizing it as such.

I could go on about this for a long time, but I’ll try to be brief. I don’t believe that everyone in heaven will be of the same mind, personality, and preference. Heaven will not be one giant group think, as it were, and Mormons, along with people of many faith traditions, are bound to be in for some surprises. The universe is not Newtonian, and people are not some identical, homogenous effect. Psalm 82:1 declares, “God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.” If we take eternal progression seriously, if we as his children can become like our heavenly parents, then if all who are “saved” (to use the Christian term, and one I agree with) are of like mind, there is, of course, no need for any such council. This principle is further taught in the notion of the “circumscription of truth,” (a paraphrase that you may recognize), a notion that suggests that two truths can literally be in opposition, and that it is their very opposition that holds the center. In Masonic terms, it is the dialectic of the square and the compass.

So I find any ordinance, ideology, or behavior that helps someone to have “the law written on their hearts” to be valid. I realize that Paul had the Mosaic Law in mind when he wrote that, but I believe that no one will be saved by merely recognizing or declaring the “correct” signifier. After all, his name is only “Jesus” in English, and in modern English at that. It is true that Paul wrote that “if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9), and that “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God” (Romans 14:11). But I believe that any number of ordinances, ideologies, and behaviors can prepare people to do just that, whether they would, as of now, recognize the signifier of “Jesus” or not. In a broad sense they are saved by bringing their lives in accordance with truth, and that is what, in brief, I think Paul is getting at in the Romans 2 passage I cited. If they have done it unto the least of these, his brethren (and sisters), they have done it unto him (Matt. 25:31-46).


2. I believe I could possibly answer “yes” to both of your questions. My current belief is that reading and studying the BoM inspires me just like other scriptures and truth seeking activities do, and just like President Hinckley suggested it could in his quote I cited from the February 2004 Ensign. I believe the BoM is another testament of Jesus Christ. That doesn’t mean that I have to believe it is all it’s been made out to be as an historical object, and no measurement of my worthiness (whether a temple recommend interview or anything else), has ever demanded that I do so (a point to ponder, I think). If I treat the BoM as an historical object, that is, with reason, the evidence against it being what it has been purported to be is overwhelming. The FARMS efforts keep the door open a crack, I suppose, but FARMS is often straining at faith-affirming gnats while ignoring the camels.

Moreover, faithful, good, and priesthood holding people have mistakenly considered something in scripture to be something other than what it is on many occasions. I believe that mistake is being made right now, by any number of loving, good, and wonderful Christians, about the Book of Revelation (I believe it’s apocalyptic literature describing late 1st century to early 2nd century Christian persecution), the “foretelling” aspects of the book of Daniel (which describes, after the fact, the fallout from Alexander’s demise), and any number of stories. If you read 1st Thessalonians (and also in some other passages) it looks like Paul was mistaken about the imminent return of Jesus in power. It doesn’t mean, though, that we can’t find truths by putting these texts in conversation with other texts, and can’t use them to leverage our understanding of the role of scripture in religious and Christian life as a whole.

In summary, I offer this: If the Church were to announce that the BoM is not the historic object it is purported to be, or that it may not be, I would be one of the people making myself comfortable in the pew on the following Sunday, eager to partake of the Sacrament and teach my Primary kids. Snoozing in RS would be right there with me. We are on a quest for truth. The BoM, along with the Bible, other scripture, and the words of modern prophets, have born me a witness of faith and convinced me that Jesus is the Christ and so I see no reason to relinquish them. Those books and words are filled with tensions and contradictions—truly, with paradoxes—but for me that is just an accepted part of the quest; A joy of the quest. Faith and reason are two pedals on the bike.

3. Yes. And your conjecture does not strike me as impossible.