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Old 05-12-2009, 04:52 PM   #31
Cali Coug
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What you're saying is: because one guy won the lottery, the lottery must be a great thing for everyone who plays.

You're right, it's more "hip" to be anti-Mormon than racially prejudiced. And that would be a great point, if it actually dealt with what I'm getting at. It doesn't. I got in this thread when someone wondered why Mormons stay loyal to a party whose leadership (allegedly) is keeping them down.

There is no party where that is more evident than the Democrat party and blacks. The election of one black president (who barely secured his nomination) does not erase decades of abuse.
You are comparing this to a lottery? That is dumb, on many levels. First of all, even if this was a lottery, everyone in the Democratic party can purchase a ticket, whereas for Republicans, Mormons can't buy a ticket to participate. They are excluded from the beginning. Second of all, this isn't even remotely like a lottery, which is dictated purely by chance and by a blind draw. Everyone saw Obama before they voted for him. Everyone heard him speak. Based on what they saw and heard, they voted for the guy. Many have argued, including yourself, that he won BECAUSE he was black. Romney arguably lost BECAUSE he was Mormon. Your comparisons are a weak attempt at an apology for the bigoted base which runs your party. Finally, the notion that the Democratic party abuses blacks, and has for years, is silly and unsupportable. Perhaps you should reexamine recent history (start with Brown v. Board and work forwards) before you so quickly conclude which of the two parties has a horrible civil rights record (hint: it rhymes with Bepublican).
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:12 PM   #32
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You are comparing this to a lottery? That is dumb, on many levels. First of all, even if this was a lottery, everyone in the Democratic party can purchase a ticket, whereas for Republicans, Mormons can't buy a ticket to participate. They are excluded from the beginning. Second of all, this isn't even remotely like a lottery, which is dictated purely by chance and by a blind draw. Everyone saw Obama before they voted for him. Everyone heard him speak. Based on what they saw and heard, they voted for the guy. Many have argued, including yourself, that he won BECAUSE he was black. Romney arguably lost BECAUSE he was Mormon. Your comparisons are a weak attempt at an apology for the bigoted base which runs your party. Finally, the notion that the Democratic party abuses blacks, and has for years, is silly and unsupportable. Perhaps you should reexamine recent history (start with Brown v. Board and work forwards) before you so quickly conclude which of the two parties has a horrible civil rights record (hint: it rhymes with Bepublican).
You missed the point of the analogy, which is: the success of one individual does not presuppose the success of all other individuals.

Republican hands are certainly not clean on the race issue, but then again, it's not the Republican party that 90+% of black voters are flocking to. The real question here is, why do blacks continue to show loyalty to a party whose past is at least as checkered, if not more so.
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Old 05-12-2009, 06:47 PM   #33
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You missed the point of the analogy, which is: the success of one individual does not presuppose the success of all other individuals.

Republican hands are certainly not clean on the race issue, but then again, it's not the Republican party that 90+% of black voters are flocking to. The real question here is, why do blacks continue to show loyalty to a party whose past is at least as checkered, if not more so.
You saying that Democrats' past with blacks is "at lesat as checkered, if not more so [than Republicans] doesn't make it true. Clearly, blacks, at least, do not believe that to be the case (for great reason, by the way). Obama's success is not the success of one individual, either. It is the success of countless individuals who paved the way for him to succeed, most of whom were also Democrats (by the way- you once again really need to work on your analogies. an analogy involving a lottery doesn't work at all when you are discussing a topic that involves far more than 100% pure chance to succeed).

You don't want to address Mormons at all. Instead, you keep asking "but why do blacks support Democrats? That doesn't make sense either!" For the sake of getting you to actually stay on point for once, let's assume that blacks are making an awful choice by supporting Democrats. Where does that leave your and Mormon support of Republicans?
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:45 PM   #34
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You saying that Democrats' past with blacks is "at lesat as checkered, if not more so [than Republicans] doesn't make it true. Clearly, blacks, at least, do not believe that to be the case (for great reason, by the way).
Obviously my view of what the Democrats have done for black Americans is different from yours (or theirs, for that matter).

But reason doesn't always win. For many blacks, voting Democrat is a religion.

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You don't want to address Mormons at all. Instead, you keep asking "but why do blacks support Democrats? That doesn't make sense either!" For the sake of getting you to actually stay on point for once, let's assume that blacks are making an awful choice by supporting Democrats. Where does that leave your and Mormon support of Republicans?
I don't view Republican treatment of Mormons the way you do.
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:56 PM   #35
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If a Mormon ran for president as a democrat, I guarantee he (or she) would not be pulling a Mitt Romney "I'm so down with evangelical stuff" routine.

Ironically, dems might be more accepting of a moderate Mormon than GOP would accept a moderate Mormon.
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:00 PM   #36
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Obviously my view of what the Democrats have done for black Americans is different from yours (or theirs, for that matter).

But reason doesn't always win. For many blacks, voting Democrat is a religion.



I don't view Republican treatment of Mormons the way you do.
How do you view Republican treatment of Mormons?

Which Mormon has been elected to national office as a Republican? Senate Majority Leader? Senate Minority Leader? House Majority or Minority? Mormons have been one of the most reliable voting bases of the Republican party. What do they have to show for it? Contrast this with Jews on the Democrat side (who constitute a smaller voting bloc than Mormons do in the US).
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:16 PM   #37
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How do you view Republican treatment of Mormons?

Which Mormon has been elected to national office as a Republican? Senate Majority Leader? Senate Minority Leader? House Majority or Minority? Mormons have been one of the most reliable voting bases of the Republican party. What do they have to show for it? Contrast this with Jews on the Democrat side (who constitute a smaller voting bloc than Mormons do in the US).
Convenient that your standard for political success consists of nothing more than the position held by the lone LDS Democrat senator.
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Old 05-12-2009, 10:30 PM   #38
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Convenient that your standard for political success consists of nothing more than the position held by the lone LDS Democrat senator.
Hardly. It isn't at all surprising that Mormons don't reach high political positions in the Democratic Party. Mormons are a strong Republican voting bloc. It is surprising that Harry Reid is arguably the most powerful elected Mormon in history and he is a Democrat.

So once again, who are your Mormon Republican leaders of national import? Surely there must be some, right? What is your party doing for Mormons, which are arguably the most reliable voting bloc in the Republican Party?
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Old 05-12-2009, 10:54 PM   #39
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Hardly. It isn't at all surprising that Mormons don't reach high political positions in the Democratic Party. Mormons are a strong Republican voting bloc. It is surprising that Harry Reid is arguably the most powerful elected Mormon in history and he is a Democrat.

So once again, who are your Mormon Republican leaders of national import? Surely there must be some, right? What is your party doing for Mormons, which are arguably the most reliable voting bloc in the Republican Party?
Nah, I'm not playing your game.
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Old 05-12-2009, 11:59 PM   #40
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Nah, I'm not playing your game.
I accept your surrender.
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