do 8 year olds "decide" to be baptized?

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Levin

I think Creekster nailed it on the head here, and I'm surprised it didn't end the discussion.

The decision to be baptized is about being informed of Christ, sin, repentance, and responsibility. It is not about "Islam v. Christianity" or "Baptist v. Mormon," as some of you have weirdly assumed. An 8-year-old child who understands what it means to do wrong, what it means to be forgiven, and it what it means that Christ sacrificed himself for us is ready to "choose" to be baptized.

It's interesting how you all are assuming a definition of "decision." A "decision," to Waters and the likeminded, is something that only follows the presentation of the available alternatives and a weighing of the strengths and weaknesses of each. Only in the ivory tower does such a definition apply. In reality, a "decision" is one where the moral implications are apprehended. As it relates to sin, repentance, forgiveness, and Christ, most 8-year olds are fully capable of apprehending the moral implications of baptism.

It is odd that so many are championing the under-estimated moral, spiritual, and intellectual development of an 8 year old, to the point that they can make an informed deicion about eternal convenants......yet these same people likely would not consider leaving that same 8 year old at home alone for 3 or 4 hours to fend for themselves.

These kids are smart enough to choose Christ and baptism and understand good vs evil, but not smart enough to make their own sandwich and go to bed by themselves. They are also afraid of the dark and believe in Santa Claus.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

So what's your basic problem with D&C 68?

It depends on how you interpret it.

Do I have a problem with the idea, on scientific and rational grounds, that a kid who is 7yo and 364 days old is not held accountable for "sin" whereas an 8 yo is?

Yes I do.

But that's not what it's about.

It's about custom. The Catholics have their custom of infant baptism. We have our custom of 8yo baptism. Does an 8yo know more about Jesus than an infant? Most of us would argue "yes." Does an 11yo have more capability to understand the gospel than a 8yo? Yes. Does a 7yo know more than an infant? Yes.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

My kids turn 4 in Dec, so you are correct that i do not have direct exposure to the psyche of an 8 year old.

I am not suggesting that kids are forced into baptism. I am simply saying that it is silly to suggest that an 8 year old is making an "informed" decision.

They are given no other choice in the matter, no other options. Nobody ever entertains the notion of NOT getting baptized. It is simply an assumption that gets ingrained into their heads from an early age.

While my kids are not 8, they are in primary. they have already received lessons on baptism and have been to stake baptisms twice.....the Primary leader tells all the kids that they will all be baptized when they turn 8, as well. They get indoctrinated early on. We all do.

I am not against it. I have said a bunch of times that I am following the same pattern. But the practice of baptizing an 8 year old is closer to social coersion than it is to informed convenant making.

Talk about extremely patronizing.....comparing an 8 year old's "decision" to be baptized to someone else who has actually studied, pondered, made a conscious decision as to how baptism will require an internal change, the knowledge that you are taking upon yourself the name of Christ, etc.. etc...8 year old kids lack that capacity. These are the same 8 year olds that would eat an entire bag of candy for dinner if you let them.

You're engaging in the fallacy of the "informed decision." A "decision" is not one where every alternative has been considered and all the pros and cons weighed.

WRT baptism, it is imply about understanding doing wrong, feeling sorry, being forgiven, and Christ making it possible. An 8-year old's soul is far enough along to do that. It's not about "hmm, I really like the selflessness of buddhism, but Catholicism has the history and the art, plus a really great pope who decries materialism . . . on the other hand, Islam understands reverence and respect for things that are holy, and they require almsgiving, which is honorable . . ."

The assumption you're making about what it means to make a decision is unrealistic. Under your rubric, I wonder if there is such a thing as a decision.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

It is odd that so many are championing the under-estimated moral, spiritual, and intellectual development of an 8 year old, to the point that they can make an informed deicion about eternal convenants......yet these same people likely would not consider leaving that same 8 year old at home alone for 3 or 4 hours to fend for themselves.

These kids are smart enough to choose Christ and baptism and understand good vs evil, but not smart enough to make their own sandwich and go to bed by themselves. They are also afraid of the dark and believe in Santa Claus.

or make any medical decision on any issue.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Levin

You're engaging in the fallacy of the "informed decision." A "decision" is not one where every alternative has been considered and all the pros and cons weighed.

WRT baptism, it is imply about understanding doing wrong, feeling sorry, being forgiven, and Christ making it possible. An 8-year old's soul is far enough along to do that. It's not about "hmm, I really like the selflessness of buddhism, but Catholicism has the history and the art, plus a really great pope who decries materialism . . . on the other hand, Islam understands reverence and respect for things that are holy, and they require almsgiving, which is honorable . . ."

The assumption you're making about what it means to make a decision is unrealistic. Under your rubric, I wonder if there is such a thing as a decision.

is a 7yo far enough along in some cases to make that decision?

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

My kids turn 4 in Dec, so you are correct that i do not have direct exposure to the psyche of an 8 year old.

I am not suggesting that kids are forced into baptism. I am simply saying that it is silly to suggest that an 8 year old is making an "informed" decision.

They are given no other choice in the matter, no other options. Nobody ever entertains the notion of NOT getting baptized. It is simply an assumption that gets ingrained into their heads from an early age.

While my kids are not 8, they are in primary. they have already received lessons on baptism and have been to stake baptisms twice.....the Primary leader tells all the kids that they will all be baptized when they turn 8, as well. They get indoctrinated early on. We all do.

I am not against it. I have said a bunch of times that I am following the same pattern. But the practice of baptizing an 8 year old is closer to social coersion than it is to informed convenant making.

Talk about extremely patronizing.....comparing an 8 year old's "decision" to be baptized to someone else who has actually studied, pondered, made a conscious decision as to how baptism will require an internal change, the knowledge that you are taking upon yourself the name of Christ, etc.. etc...8 year old kids lack that capacity. These are the same 8 year olds that would eat an entire bag of candy for dinner if you let them.

You could take this social coercion vs informed decision concept a long ways. Maybe the two are not mutually exclusive.

Marriage within a year of coming home from mission?

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

It depends on how you interpret it.

Do I have a problem with the idea, on scientific and rational grounds, that a kid who is 7yo and 364 days old is not held accountable for "sin" whereas an 8 yo is?

Yes I do.

But that's not what it's about.

It's about custom. The Catholics have their custom of infant baptism. We have our custom of 8yo baptism. Does an 8yo know more about Jesus than an infant? Most of us would argue "yes." Does an 11yo have more capability to understand the gospel than a 8yo? Yes. Does a 7yo know more than an infant? Yes.

That's the line in the sand that God has decreed. Are you contending that

1. God doesn't know what he's talking about
2. Joseph Smith made it D&C 68 up and God didn't really tell him that it should be at age 8
3. The little tidbit in D&C 68 about parental condemnation was melodramatic poetic license from Joseph Smith to put some teeth into that custom

[Levin]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

or make any medical decision on any issue.

You and DDD are interesting folks on this issue.

You better believe I trust my four-year old to show kindness and love to his little brother even though I wouldn't trust him to take out the garbage.

You guys are simply making the interesting observation that it truly is remarkable how the moral lives of children develop much faster than their material lives.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Of course the other argument is quite simple and powerful: that's the age that God wants it, maturity notwithstanding.

And he "wants" it that way because he's designated it as s the age of accountability. That's really the salient point we're missing here.

All this talk of maturity and rational decision-making is secondary.

[MikeWaters]

D&C 68:27 does not give any specific requirements for baptism.

27 And their children shall be abaptized for the bremission of their sins when ceight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands.

It says they should be taught about faith and repetance, or it will be on the head of the parents.

This fits in with my philosophy that there is no reason why I would prohibit a kid from being baptized, no matter the intellect or maturity or level of belief and understanding.

Baptize at 8. There's no caveat, there's no stated exception.

Of course, I don't kid myself that there is always going to be understanding or an informed decision.