"Worthiness"...

[jay santos]

My observation of how the spirit works in people's lives is that if a person wants to feel the spirit and seeks it he will have it. No matter how vile the sinner be or the lack of repentance demonstrated, one simple "help me God" and the spirit is there.

[TheAzzuri]

Originally Posted by Adam

Does anyone know what this means? Is this Tex's way of saying he interprets these scriptures differently then I do? Can anyone translate for him?



Again, no returned missionary believes that the Spirit can only touch a repentant man. Many sinful people who never repent or even intend to repent can feel the Spirit.

"You have to be worthy to feel the Spirit" is a pernicious lie.

If Tex would just admit this we could move on to other more productive discussions about what the gift of the HG means to the saved.

Perhaps this is the difference between constant companionship and a single instance in which one feels the spirit.
________
MissLYUBA

[Tex]

Originally Posted by TheAzzuri

Perhaps this is the difference between constant companionship and a single instance in which one feels the spirit.

Which is why I began this conversation about worthiness by asking, in essence, "worthiness for what"?

[aaronshaf]

I know it's dangerous to quote Mormon leaders / authoritative literature in these quarters, but...

"Only through sacrifice can we become worthy to live in the presence of God. Only through sacrifice can we enjoy eternal life. Many who have lived before us have sacrificed all they had. We must be willing to do the same if we would earn the rich reward they enjoy (see Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, p. 58)." - Gospel Principles, p.171

"God’s eternal purpose is for you to be successful in this mortal life. No matter how wicked the world becomes, you can earn that blessing. Seek and be attentive to the personal guidance given to you through the Holy Spirit. Continue to be worthy to receive it. Reach out to others who stumble and are perplexed, not certain of what path to follow." - Richard G. Scott, "How to Live Well amid Increasing Evil", Ensign, May 2004, p.100

"Those words sit next to my computer screen on a now-battered Post-it note. His counsel-make yourself able, worthy, and qualified-has great significance. To write the Church story, we have to merit the Lord's being with us, on our right hand and on our left. We can't expect his guidance and inspiration if we aren't worthy. We can't take his help for granted. Nor can we expect to be successful without it." - 1997 BYU Women’s Conference, p.323

"I bear witness of the power and comfort the gift of the Holy Ghost is to those who live worthy of it. What a reassurance it is for us to know that we are not left alone to find the course that we must follow to merit the eternal blessings of our Father in Heaven." - L. Tom Perry, “That Spirit Which Leadeth to Do Good”, Ensign, May 1997, p.68

"They taught us the importance of being kind to one another, obeying the commandments, and how to receive a fulness of joy and merit eternal life. They have pleaded with us to live more Christlike lives, to emulate the Savior in all we do, and to qualify ourselves to be worthy of the saving and exalting blessings available only in the holy temples of the Lord." - Robert D. Hales, Hear the Prophet’s Voice and Obey, Ensign, May 1995, p.15

"Not all of his children are worthy of celestial glory, and many are forced to suffer his wrath because of their transgressions, and this causes the Father and the whole heavens to have sorrow and to weep. The Lord works in accordance with natural law. Man must be redeemed according to law and his reward must be based on the law of justice. Because of this the Lord will not give unto men that which they do not merit, but shall reward all men according to their works." - Joseph Fielding Smith, Conference Report, April 1923, Third Day—Morning Session, p.137; cf. Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie, 2:, p.27

"Now, in order that we may bring and merit unto ourselves a complete exaltation, and he worthy to come back into the presence of our Father, there is a code of laws that we must live up to." - Jonathan C. Cutler., Conference Report, October 1918, Outdoor Meeting., p.96

"This mortal life is granted us that we may be schooled properly and trained through the plan of salvation to be worthy to become in very deed sons and daughters of God. Our Eternal Father would have every soul saved if that were feasible. Salvation, however, is based on merit and obedience to divine law and therefore is only obtained through compliance with divine commandments." - Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols., 5:, p.82

"Very gladly would the Lord give to everyone eternal life, but since that blessing can come only on merit-through the faithful performance of duty-only those who are worthy shall receive it." - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie, 2:, p.5

"The gift of the Holy Ghost grows with worthiness. If you are baptized when you are eight years old, of course you are a child, and there is much you would not be expected to know. But the Holy Ghost comes to you as you grow and learn and make yourselves worthy. It comes a little at a time as you merit it. And as your life is in harmony, you gradually receive the Holy Ghost in a great measure. (75-40)" - Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, edited by Edward L. Kimball, p.114

And my favorite, to which Robert Millet once responded, "great quote!":

"[E]very man and woman will receive all that they are worthy of, and something thrown in perhaps on the score of the boundless charity of God. But who can justly expect to obtain more than they merit?" - Joseph F. Smith, Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 20:, p.30

And then my second favorite:

“Always live in such a way that when you need the Lord’s blessings, you can call upon Him and receive them because you are worthy. There will come times in your life when you will need immediate blessings. You will need to live in such a way that they will be granted–not out of mercy but because you are worthy.” - Elaine Dalton, October 2006 Conference, http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/d...646-12,00.html

Let me pre-empt a silly response:

No, I'm not telling you all what you individually believe. I'm quoting your leaders.

[Archaea]

To what end to do you parse and quote past leaders without context or development?

We don't care what your interpretation of these quotes in proper context is. They are our leaders and we use them in proper context for our benefit. You do not.

This is a useless exercise. No non-academic non-member has any business quoting in small part the words of our lay leaders.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by aaronshaf

No, I'm not telling you all what you individually believe. I'm quoting your leaders.

You also know you could find 20 quotes that are heavy on the grace side that deemphasize works in the same way these quotes seem to with grace. You could also do the same exercise with the Bible. You could also do the same exercise with popular Christian evangelicals. Lame.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

You also know you could find 20 quotes that are heavy on the grace side that deemphasize works in the same way these quotes seem to with grace. You could also do the same exercise with the Bible. You could also do the same exercise with popular Christian evangelicals. Lame.

That about sums up aaron asshat.

[aaronshaf]

I don't think Mormons will get very far on this issue until they stop seeing it as an issue of "emphasis" and start seeing it as an issue of how grace (or merit or "worthiness") systematically fits into a larger coherent theological worldview.

[aaronshaf]

Archaea, would you like to take a stab at explaining how the following quote could possibly ever be theologically justified by any sort of context?

"[E]very man and woman will receive all that they are worthy of, and something thrown in perhaps on the score of the boundless charity of God. But who can justly expect to obtain more than they merit?" - Joseph F. Smith, Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 20:, p.30

If you can't, just keep insulating.

[woot]

Originally Posted by aaronshaf

I know it's dangerous to quote Mormon leaders / authoritative literature in these quarters, but...






And my favorite, to which Robert Millet once responded, "great quote!":



And then my second favorite:



Let me pre-empt a silly response:

No, I'm not telling you all what you individually believe. I'm quoting your leaders.

There's not a single thing in there that you would disagree with if you were honest with yourself. Believing that God values belief is no different in principle than believing that God values works. In both cases, you have to comply with God's priorities in order to be saved.

As I said before, it makes sense to believe in a religion that absolves you from all but the tiniest responsibility, but trying to denigrate the beliefs of those who assume that God would want a little bit more from his people seems terribly counterproductive. If all God requires is belief, then both religions are fine, since neither religion has much of a clue on the specifics and nitpicking is pointless and petty. If God requires anything more than that, you're effed.

Your belief that Mormons worship "the wrong Jesus" is not only hypocritical since you know so very little about Jesus and everything else, but also flat-out wrong, since the Mormon interpretation is no less likely to be accurate than anyone else's.