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Old 01-26-2016, 01:20 PM   #1
MikeWaters
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Default BYU law school being investigated by bar group

over the issues of discrimination against gays and against those that leave the LDS faith.

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3459506-1...discrimination

BYU very much wants every non-LDS student at BYU to leave their faith for Mormonism. But if it happens the other way around, buh-bye.
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Old 01-26-2016, 05:59 PM   #2
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over the issues of discrimination against gays and against those that leave the LDS faith.

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3459506-1...discrimination

BYU very much wants every non-LDS student at BYU to leave their faith for Mormonism. But if it happens the other way around, buh-bye.
I just finished Michel Houellebecq's "Submission". I've read all of his other novels except his debut and have enjoyed all of them. This one is about the election of a Muslim Brotherhood candidate to the presidency of France; coincidentally the book was released on the day of the Charlie Hebdo massacres. The protagonist is a professor at the Sorbonne (University of Paris), which, as a result of political deal-making, is given to the Muslims to turn into an Islamic university--it winds up looking very much like BYU, but more moderate (for one thing, they bend the rules on alcohol). The professors must convert and sign a kind of honor code agreement, or accept early retirement with full pension.

The prospect of polygamy with the wives inevitably selected from the now all-Muslim student body, and substantially increased pay, is what's interesting to our nihilistic protagonist. Of course Houellebecq's characters are not admirable; but in an ironic way they always make me examine what makes life and its tedium, aggravations, and inevitable horrors and ultimate oblivion worth living. There is also some excellent, highly entertaining satire. There's a lot of hilarious stuff about how religion really is winning and secularism and Western Civilization are "putrefied" and doomed. However, Houellebecq is quite indifferent to novel mechanics and artistry. So don't read him for that.

This book ought to interest Mormons because you see how similar Mormonism is to middle or upper middle class or Saudi-style Islam. The linked article from the New York Times made me think the same thing.http://nyti.ms/1PNALKH

The LDS Church really ought to consider a merger or a coalition with this element of Islam. There is a lot in common; they are the two distinct religious movements that are most alike. It could be the only hope for the LDS movement.
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Old 01-26-2016, 06:25 PM   #3
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Zulu, who formerly posted here and may yet post again, remarked in the past that in his travels to the middle east that he found Muslims and Mormons to have much in common and very similar values.

He no longer publicly shares such sentiments, either because he has changed his mind, or because the comparison is not flattering.

However the efforts of LDS church leaders over many decades to make Mormons into hyper-Americans seems to have worked. I think most Mormons in America would abandon Mormonism before abandoning America. And this is eventually to the undoing of a ultraconservative leanings that go strongly against the American mainstream. Accommodation is the path that we will see. Moderation will eventually win, after some kicking and screaming.
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Old 01-26-2016, 06:39 PM   #4
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over the issues of discrimination against gays and against those that leave the LDS faith.

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3459506-1...discrimination

BYU very much wants every non-LDS student at BYU to leave their faith for Mormonism. But if it happens the other way around, buh-bye.
This is in large a reboot of an earlier complaint that was dismissed. Now, they are spicing it up with the LBGT issues.

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Levin's group is appealing a university-wide decision from a different accrediting group, which reviewed a similar complaint on the religious-freedom issue but found no violation on the university's part. The Northwestern Commission on Colleges and Universities is one of many accrediting bodies partly responsible for determining American colleges' standing with the federal government.
In one respect, BYU treats former adherents in the same manner as Islam in Egypt treats former Muslims. In Egypt, Coptics are free to join Islam but you are subject to heinous treatment if a Muslim converts to Christianity. Not much different at BYU, which has seen some troubling events in regards to members who lose faith while at BYU.
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Old 01-26-2016, 06:54 PM   #5
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Leaving the terrorists and radicals aside, Mormonism is the New World's Islam, and each has a like love-hate relationship with Euro/American secularism. I say love-hate because Mormonism and Islam alike is inextricably tied to and reliant upon modern secularism in a way that neither recognizes. So many Mormons are even now poor, brown, disdained immigrants (like Muslims in Europe). Mormonism and Islam each was started and took root at the fringes of and in the sticks outside of great and powerful secular cultures. The founding mythology, the theology, the moral code, the attitude toward females, sexuality and gays, and food and drink codes are the same--the only difference is pork. Granted, the D&C is more like the Koran than the Book of Mormon is.
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Old 01-26-2016, 08:21 PM   #6
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Leaving the terrorists and radicals aside, Mormonism is the New World's Islam, and each has a like love-hate relationship with Euro/American secularism. I say love-hate because Mormonism and Islam alike is inextricably tied to and reliant upon modern secularism in a way that neither recognizes. So many Mormons are even now poor, brown, disdained immigrants (like Muslims in Europe). Mormonism and Islam each was started and took root at the fringes of and in the sticks outside of great and powerful secular cultures. The founding mythology, the theology, the moral code, the attitude toward females, sexuality and gays, and food and drink codes are the same--the only difference is pork. Granted, the D&C is more like the Koran than the Book of Mormon is.
Not a new idea.
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Old 01-26-2016, 10:30 PM   #7
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Not a new idea.
Of course. The two faiths are demonstrably similar. Only why that is so is an open question. And I've never seen a satisfying answer. Islam was a well-known phenomenon even in rural America by 1830, and it is the kind of thing that would have interested JS and Mormonism's other founders. Did it provide a model? Muhammad even had a first vision (granted, in a cave, not a grove, and he was visited by Angel Gabriel, not GF and Jesus). Is there any evidence that LDS founders had an Islamic model in mind? I've never heard that there is, but I haven't looked for it. You could say that the logical or most plausible explanation is that Islam was the model.

But I'm willing to entertain a theory that the strains of monotheism that arise in reaction to Pauline Christianity and Euro or Classical based societies look much the same. And there is a lot in history to support this, as we consider not only Mormonism and Islam, but also the radical, ascetic strains of Judaism during the historical Jesus' time (such as the Essenes) that some consider the seeds of Islam, and the ascetic Protestant sects started in more remote places of Northern Europe and other New World sects.
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Old 01-26-2016, 11:37 PM   #8
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Of course. The two faiths are demonstrably similar. Only why that is so is an open question. And I've never seen a satisfying answer. Islam was a well-known phenomenon even in rural America by 1830, and it is the kind of thing that would have interested JS and Mormonism's other founders. Did it provide a model? Muhammad even had a first vision (granted, in a cave, not a grove, and he was visited by Angel Gabriel, not GF and Jesus). Is there any evidence that LDS founders had an Islamic model in mind? I've never heard that there is, but I haven't looked for it. You could say that the logical or most plausible explanation is that Islam was the model.

But I'm willing to entertain a theory that the strains of monotheism that arise in reaction to Pauline Christianity and Euro or Classical based societies look much the same. And there is a lot in history to support this, as we consider not only Mormonism and Islam, but also the radical, ascetic strains of Judaism during the historical Jesus' time (such as the Essenes) that some consider the seeds of Islam, and the ascetic Protestant sects started in more remote places of Northern Europe and other New World sects.
You're going to have show me that a lot was known in rural America about Islam to convince me it arose out Islamic traditions as opposed to an organic creation. It is possible that this artifice is a naturally occurring type organization recurring in other societies. Even today, Islam, its beliefs and traditions are poorly understood by modern societies with all our technological advantages for the dissemination of information.

Although there are superficial similarities, there are dozens of dissimilarities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_...ms_and_Mormons

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Fundamental differences between Islam and Mormonism include, but are not limited to:
  • Mormonism believes that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones, together with a wife, referred to as “Heavenly Mother” by some Latter-day Saints (although this view is not made explicit in Mormon scripture). Islam emphatically rejects these notions.
  • Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; he is referred to as "a god" in their religion. Islam rejects this idea, believing that Jesus was a mortal[citation needed] being chosen to be a Prophet of God, no different from Moses, Abraham, Muhammad, or other prophets of God throughout time, except in that he was raised to heaven, like Elijah and Enoch.
  • Islam insists that only God is eternal; everything else was created by him ex nihilo. Mormonism denies this, insisting that matter and intelligence are equally eternal, and that God only "organized" them, rather than creating them out of nothing.
  • Mormonism believes that God the Father spiritually begat every human being who has ever lived, prior to their existence on earth, and that we all lived in a "pre-existence" with him prior to being born. Islam rejects these ideas.[citation needed]
  • Mormonism believes that Satan was a "spirit son" of God named Lucifer, whose plan to negate human free will was rejected, leading him to rebel.[18] Islam rejects this, stating that Iblis, a jinn, refused to prostrate himself before Adam upon God's command, causing God to expel him from his presence, after which he became Satan (or "Shayṭān").[19]
  • Islam believes that the Angels are beings created by God from nūr (holy light), who lack free will and serve him unhesitatingly. Mormonism sees Angels as humans in spirit form (before birth or after death) or resurrected (immortal) humans. Human spirits who follow Satan may be considered Satan's angels, but the term "angel" usually refers to those who follow God.[20]
  • Mormonism believes that its adherents may become "gods" in the next life, through following its teachings and receiving certain necessary ordinances. Islam rejects this notion entirely.[citation needed]
  • Mormonism believes that married couples in the next life will continue to beget children;[21] Islam rejects this.
  • In addition to angels and human beings, Islam believes in a third group of intelligent beings, the jinn. Mormonism ultimately believes in only one group of beings, some of whom are humans living out their earthly existence; others are angels or gods.
  • Islam believes that one may become a full-fledged Muslim simply by reciting its profession of faith, the Shahada, while believing sincerely in its teachings.[22] Mormonism believes that the receipt of a series of sacramental ordinances, including baptism and confirmation, are required to become a Mormon.
  • Mormonism believes in the existence of a Priesthood unique to them, conferred by ordination, which is required to administer sacraments or otherwise officially act in the name of God. Islam rejects this idea.
  • Islam proclaims that its prophet Muhammad was the "seal of the prophets",[23] and thus, that no further prophets would come after him. Mormonism, while believing that Muhammad was a great and inspired teacher, does not consider him a prophet; it does believe Joseph Smith and his successors (the latest of whom is Thomas S. Monson) to be prophets, which Islam rejects.
  • Mormonism erects temples throughout the world, where special ordinances are performed for both the living and the dead. Islam does not accept this notion.
  • Islam's Qur'an bans alcohol and gambling, while various fatawa also ban tobacco. In addition to those three things, Mormonism bans coffee and tea, while Islam does not.
  • Islam bans certain kinds of meat, while Mormonism says that all meats may be eaten, but should be used in moderation. Islam also requires that all meats be slaughtered in accordance with prescribed rituals similar to judaism, while Mormonism has no such requirement.
  • While Mormonism permits the depiction of God and his prophets in images, Islam expressly bans depiction of Allah – God – as a form of idolatry; in addition, the majority Sunni portion of it bans the depiction of any prophet of Islam, including Jesus Christ.
  • Whereas Mormonism has a hierarchical structure, culminating in a single President of the Church, Islam does not—though it does recognize the existence of a supreme secular leader called the Caliph (this office, most recently occupied by the Ottoman Sultans of Turkey, has not been filled since 1924).[citation needed]
  • Islam requires a pilgrimage to Mecca as part of its religion from those who can afford, while Mormonism does not have any corresponding imperative, although it does encourage members to travel to the nearest temple at least once in their lifetime (and more often if circumstances permit), for the receipt of certain sacred ordinances there.
  • Islam still permits polygamy under certain specified conditions. While there are some fundamental sects of Mormonism that permit unrestricted polygamy, mainstream Mormonism (having previously embraced the principle) officially banned it in 1890.
  • Mormonism believes in the possibility of continuing revelation from their prophets, whereas Islam considers the Qur'an to be God's final message to humankind
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Old 01-26-2016, 11:58 PM   #9
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You're going to have show me that a lot was known in rural America about Islam to convince me it arose out Islamic traditions as opposed to an organic creation. It is possible that this artifice is a naturally occurring type organization recurring in other societies. Even today, Islam, its beliefs and traditions are poorly understood by modern societies with all our technological advantages for the dissemination of information.

Although there are superficial similarities, there are dozens of dissimilarities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_...ms_and_Mormons
Good grief. The Romantic Age was much about such fascinations. (Have you read my Givens book?)

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...nalCode=cjmm20

Why do you think some snake oil salesman was peddling Ptolemaic papyrus in Nauvoo?

Why are Mormons defensive about this? The comparisons I've made are neutral. Islam is more important, older, bigger, richer, etc. The Koran is much more respected as literature than Mormon scriptures. The Islamic brand is probably a lot more valuable. I'm sure it would be the acquiring entity. If Mormons don't like the comparison they should ask themselves why.
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Old 01-27-2016, 01:01 AM   #10
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Good grief. The Romantic Age was much about such fascinations. (Have you read my Givens book?)

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...nalCode=cjmm20

Why do you think some snake oil salesman was peddling Ptolemaic papyrus in Nauvoo?

Why are Mormons defensive about this? The comparisons I've made are neutral. Islam is more important, older, bigger, richer, etc. The Koran is much more respected as literature than Mormon scriptures. The Islamic brand is probably a lot more valuable. I'm sure it would be the acquiring entity. If Mormons don't like the comparison they should ask themselves why.
It is not a challenge, but a request for reasonable proof. Just because there was fascination with Egyptian materials, which are not inherently Islamic as they pre-date Islam, that seems odd to assert the primitive folk of upstate New York had much of an understanding of the Shia/Sunni dynamics of Islam and its tenets. There wasn't even a decent English translation of the Quran until Yusuf Ali completed his in 1934. The Holy Qur'an: Translation and Commentary (1934) by Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

Mohammed does form perhaps an archetype of the warrior/prophet whose calling commences with a vision of God and his angels. In that sense, what the archetype set up in the charismatic sense is analogous to Joseph Smith, but to state categorically that Joseph Smith knowingly emulated a man he could hardly known much about, given the lack of materials in English with much understanding. Early translations from Arabic, Urdu, Turkish and Farsi into workable English seem hardly likely to make to it to an uneducated farm boy in upstate New York.

It more likely possible that the sociological conditions which allow charismatic figures to create a following recur from time to time, as shown by numerous charismatic "prophets" throughout the ages.

Moreover, Islam won over its minions through martial conquest and the LDS faith is now floundering because it is unable to control the information flow and is unable find a central message for new adherents. The Caliphates and Umayyads were well-established within 150 years, but 750 CE, leading the growth under the Abbasids, Seljuks and Ottomans over the centuries.

In many respects, absent moderation and attachment to a growing economy or world empire, the LDS faith is unlikely to see such growth and domination.
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