Do you feel guilty for never having fought in a war? - Page 4 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 09-24-2007, 07:20 PM

Remembering the dead in general impersonal ways is fine. Remember the dead after the war is over, that is fine also.

It's remembering the dead in the specific, during the war, that gets a few people upset.

Tex · 09-24-2007, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Remembering the dead in general impersonal ways is fine. Remember the dead after the war is over, that is fine also.

It's remembering the dead in the specific, during the way, that gets a few people upset.

Now that's just plain disingenuous. I don't think any sane American has a problem with remembering the dead in specific ways; they just don't like it being done with a political agenda.

I don't know if they do it anymore, but Fox used to have a regular segment on Brit Hume's show once a week where they interviewed a current-war Iraq vet and showcased his heroism. I only saw a couple of them, so I couldn't tell you if they profiled those KIA, but if tastefully done, I think it can be a wonderful reminder of the ultimate sacrifice these servicemen make for us.

SeattleUte · 09-24-2007, 09:14 PM

The no votes just don't get it, don't get war's vital relation to civilization. You're supposed to feel guilty or you're messed up.

MikeWaters · 09-24-2007, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

The no votes just don't get it, don't get war's vital relation to civilization. You're supposed to feel guilty or you're messed up.

and the less guilty one feels, generally the more ready one is willing to support a war.

SeattleUte · 09-24-2007, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

and the less guilty one feels, generally the more ready one is willing to support a war.

Here is an article that addresses this truism. Just read the first few paragraphs describing Baruma's experience at a neocon party in Brussels on the eve of our invasion of Iraq.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20590

BYU71 · 09-24-2007, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Here is an article that addresses this truism. Just read the first few paragraphs describing Baruma's experience at a neocon party in Brussels on the eve of our invasion of Iraq.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20590

My Dad spent four years in Europe fighting WWII. He supports Bush and the War in Iraq. Can I use his vote as one who has served and votes the war is OK.

He also thinks the Clintons suck.

SeattleUte · 09-24-2007, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYU71

My Dad spent four years in Europe fighting WWII. He supports Bush and the War in Iraq. Can I use his vote as one who has served and votes the war is OK.

He also thinks the Clintons suck.

If you think I'm an anti-war pacifist you've missed my message. you are lucky to have a father like that.

RockyBalboa · 09-24-2007, 11:23 PM

I didn't see this thread just until now, but would like to add my 2 cents.

For awhile back from 1999-2002 I was reading everything I could get my hands in regards to WWII. The fact that 50-60 million people perished in that war is such a mind boggling stat that I have difficulty wrapping my brain around it. 400-500K of those American Casualties.

After reading a lot about it I became convinced that for the sake of plagiarizing Tom Brokaw that it was indeed "The Greatest Generation".

I'm part of Gen X. We didn't really have to do much or sacrifice much. The more I watched kids in this day and age the more I'm convinced they haven't a clue what real sacrifice means and just how much for granted they take their freedoms.

My Dad was drafted for the Korean War and suffered a severe back injury during Boot Camp and never went overseas. I'm grateful for the bad backs he's passed on to his 5 sons. All in his regime, save 7, were slaughtered on PorkChop Hill.

I also take my freedoms way too much for granted.

I have found myself many times regretting that I never served in the military or ever have to go to war helping to fulfill my duty. Part of that guilt admittedly drives me to cherish those even more who sacrificed on my behalf.

I guess that's also part of the reason why I take a great deal of pride in my brothers now 20 year career in the USAF. He's served 2 tours in the middle east during the war and is on the rotation to leave again sometime next Spring.

He's coming home next week, bringing his son to the MTC and all 8 siblings will be in town for what may likely be the final real family picture because of my parents continued downward health.

I've a nephew who also served 12 months in Afghanistan in the Army.

Sorry this is such a long winded explanation to make my point, but there's many things in life I've likely missed and being able to serve my country in that regard is one of them. Am I grateful I never went to war or had to fight? Yes I am,,,but at the same time.....well I'm sure you all get the point.

Goatnapper'96 · 09-25-2007, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

The no votes just don't get it, don't get war's vital relation to civilization. You're supposed to feel guilty or you're messed up.

I almost signed back up after 9/11. I decided against it, I don't feel guilty. I miss the cameraderie of the service. I miss the NCO corps, so much easier to get things done than the civilian world. I don't miss the political correctness movement facilitating an atmosphere where I spent more time in consideration for others training than I spent actually maneuvering my Scout platoon. I guess I was a bit bitter that there was not the money to ensure that the units were adequately trained for their wartime missions, IMO the American people owe that to those who volunteer to put their lives on the line for ma and apple pie. I am sure there is plenty of money now.

Many of the soldiers were really good kids, often with less than desirable pasts, just trying to improve their lives. Similar to serving a mission it made me grateful for the blessings of my upbringing and solidified my conviction to the temporal blessings of a healthy, wholesome and spiritual life as advocated by LDS doctrine. It made me aware that others with issues have reasons and challenges/baggage that I luckily might never understand. It helped me to not be so egocentrical or judgemental. The NCOs were the best. Most of mine had been complete wasters/high school dropouts/druggies who found some discipline in the service and developed into some of the best pure leaders of men I ever had the pleasure of knowing. They were profane, vile and pretty damn offensive. However, in their own way they had a genuine love of their troopers, very much true charity in my opinion. They would work like mad to make sure their men were trained for whatever contingency would come and I believed most of them would have laid their life on the line for each other. I was proud to have served with them. My professional life has never been as fun or fulfilling since I gave up my platoon in November, 1998.

To those who wonder the reason I got out was this. I wasn't overly attracted to the power. I liked the adrenaline rushes of blowing shit up and maneuvering units. I loved the tactics and the team building. I loved the idealism of genuinely believing what I did mattered. I loved being around the soldiers, doing PT and screaming ridiculous cadences. I didn't get my jollies off being saluted, called "Sir" or everyone standing up when I came around. I think most career officers have to have some attraction to the power or else it is not worth it to put up with the bullshit that you spend 90% of your garrison (day to day on post operations; i.e. not out in the field playing GI Joe) time doing. IMO the Army only looked fun for an officer as a Platoon Leader and a commander. The rest of the jobs are not a great deal different than what one does in the civilian world. It did not look worth it to me to put 20 years in to actually enjoy yourself for 4 of them, two as a PL and two as a Commander. So I got out and moved amongst the rednecks.

MikeWaters · 09-25-2007, 12:54 AM

Rocky FWIW they extended the age limit and have liberalized all sorts of qualifications, that it would be shocking if you couldn't enlist, should you so choose.

Of course, like the rest of us, you may not want to do it at this time. But it's not too late, I don't think.

There's a vague chance I might become a VA employee in the next few years, but that's a whole different ball of wax. No commitment there.

View Poll Results: Do you feel guilty for never having fought in a war?
Yes	10	33.33%
No	19	63.33%
N/A; I did.	1	3.33%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

09-24-2007, 07:20 PM	#31
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Remembering the dead in general impersonal ways is fine. Remember the dead after the war is over, that is fine also. It's remembering the dead in the specific, during the war, that gets a few people upset. Last edited by MikeWaters; 09-24-2007 at 08:31 PM.

09-24-2007, 09:14 PM	#33
SeattleUte fairlds.org Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 10,665	The no votes just don't get it, don't get war's vital relation to civilization. You're supposed to feel guilty or you're messed up. __________________ Interrupt all you like. We're involved in a complicated story here, and not everything is quite what it seems to be. —Paul Auster

09-24-2007, 11:23 PM	#38
RockyBalboa Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 7,297	I didn't see this thread just until now, but would like to add my 2 cents. For awhile back from 1999-2002 I was reading everything I could get my hands in regards to WWII. The fact that 50-60 million people perished in that war is such a mind boggling stat that I have difficulty wrapping my brain around it. 400-500K of those American Casualties. After reading a lot about it I became convinced that for the sake of plagiarizing Tom Brokaw that it was indeed "The Greatest Generation". I'm part of Gen X. We didn't really have to do much or sacrifice much. The more I watched kids in this day and age the more I'm convinced they haven't a clue what real sacrifice means and just how much for granted they take their freedoms. My Dad was drafted for the Korean War and suffered a severe back injury during Boot Camp and never went overseas. I'm grateful for the bad backs he's passed on to his 5 sons. All in his regime, save 7, were slaughtered on PorkChop Hill. I also take my freedoms way too much for granted. I have found myself many times regretting that I never served in the military or ever have to go to war helping to fulfill my duty. Part of that guilt admittedly drives me to cherish those even more who sacrificed on my behalf. I guess that's also part of the reason why I take a great deal of pride in my brothers now 20 year career in the USAF. He's served 2 tours in the middle east during the war and is on the rotation to leave again sometime next Spring. He's coming home next week, bringing his son to the MTC and all 8 siblings will be in town for what may likely be the final real family picture because of my parents continued downward health. I've a nephew who also served 12 months in Afghanistan in the Army. Sorry this is such a long winded explanation to make my point, but there's many things in life I've likely missed and being able to serve my country in that regard is one of them. Am I grateful I never went to war or had to fight? Yes I am,,,but at the same time.....well I'm sure you all get the point. __________________ Masquerading as Cougarguards very own genius dumbass since 05'. Last edited by RockyBalboa; 09-24-2007 at 11:32 PM.

09-25-2007, 12:54 AM	#40
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Rocky FWIW they extended the age limit and have liberalized all sorts of qualifications, that it would be shocking if you couldn't enlist, should you so choose. Of course, like the rest of us, you may not want to do it at this time. But it's not too late, I don't think. There's a vague chance I might become a VA employee in the next few years, but that's a whole different ball of wax. No commitment there.