The Vietnamese Napalm girl

[MikeWaters]

http://www.famouspictures.org/mag/in...am_Napalm_Girl

Interesting life story.

She has started a foundation.

http://www.kimfoundation.com/modules...file=intro.htm

She met one of the American pilots who bombed her, and forgave him.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

http://www.famouspictures.org/mag/in...am_Napalm_Girl

Interesting life story.

She has started a foundation.

http://www.kimfoundation.com/modules...file=intro.htm

She met one of the American pilots who bombed her, and forgave him.

what a great soul !

I dont think i would forgive the Iraqi pilots who have cruelly bombarded us.

[Indy Coug]

Does Islam say that it is important to forgive?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Does Islam say that it is important to forgive?

Forgiveness is not as deep in Islam.

Reading the Qu-ran, one senses a deep sense of loss, because love and compassion are not at Islam's core. Now I imagine Mindful will try to argue otherwise, but in reading the Qu-ran, one does not feel peace or love, but tension.

Forgiveness in Islam is very, very conditional. If one is not a disbeliever, if one hasn't caused other to disbelieve, and so on ....

It is no wonder Muslims have trouble forgiving as their religion doesn't seem to encourage it.

There is no real redemption or day of Atonement where one tries to reconcile with God. That is the emptiness I feel when studying Islam, no love.

Here is a discussion which makes it sound very ritualistic and unreasonable to expect forgiveness:

Allah (SWT),who named Himself Ar-Rahman (The Beneficent) and Ar-Rahim (The Merciful) is also Al-Ghafoor (The Forgiving). His Mercy overtakes His punishment and anger. He is more merciful to His creations than a mother can be to her infants. He created "man with weakness"; thus He knows and we should know that "to err is human," and "no one is perfect."

Iblis (Satan), the cursed one, out of envy to Adam, has promised to himself "to attack children of Adam on their way to their journey toward God, so that those who fall prey to his attack will also have the same fate as himself (I'll take you down with me!). So he says, "I'll attack men from the front, behind and sides." (7:17) This means he will disguise himself as our friend, as our opponent, and side distractions of the world. He will then make us do wrong by presenting evil as good (poison candy in a nice wrapper), making us angry, jealous, envious, just "follow-the-leader" type, and we wrong ourselves and fall prey to his temptation. Iblis and his followers have a feast of joy and laugh at man's foolishness, until the man realizes his mistakes, repents and asks for forgiveness and he is forgiven, and then Iblis cries again.

Giving up Hope of the Mercy of Allah is a crime in itself:

"Say: 'O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of God: for God forgives all sins (except shirk): for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.'" (39:53)

"And it is He who accepts repentance from His servants and pardons the evil deed and knows what you do." (42:25)

In order for forgiveness to be accepted, these conditions should be met:

(1) The crime is committed out of ignorance, not with the intention that, "Let us go ahead and commit this crime as Allah is forgiving, so He will forgive us.";

(2) Quickly turn into shame and repentance after committing a crime out of ignorance;

(3) After asking for forgiveness, make a promise or pledge to "mend his ways", and to stick to his promise. Let us examine verses of Quran.

"...if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented and amended (your conduct), lo! Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (6:54)

"Forgiveness is only incumbent on Allah towards those who do evil out of ignorance and then turn quickly (in repentance) to Allah. Toward them will Allah turn in mercy; for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom." (4:17)

"Forgiveness is not for those who do ill until death faces one of them, who then says, 'Lo! I repent now, nor for those who die as disbelievers, for such we have prepared a painful doom.'" (4:18)

IS ANY CRIME OR TOO MANY CRIMES TOO BIG TO BE FORGIVEN?
Let us examine two Hadith.

1) Hadith Qudsi: Allah, the Almighty, has said:

O Son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O Son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O Son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins as great as the earth, and were you then to face Me ascribing no partners to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.

2) Prophet (SW) has said:

A certain person had committed 99 murders. He went to a scholar and asked, is there any chance of my being forgiven? The scholar said no, you have committed too many crimes. The man killed the scholar too, but his heart was restless, so he went to another scholar and asked the same question. He was told yes, but you must leave this town of bad people and go live in the next town in the company of good people.

So the man set out to the town he was told to go to. On the way he died. A man passing by saw two angels arguing over his dead body. The Angel from Hell said, 'His body belongs to me as he had not done any good in his life.' The Angel from Heaven said, 'His body belongs to me as he had repented and was set out to be with good people.' The man who was the passer-by said, 'Let us measure the distance of his body from the town he left and the town he was going to.'

This was done. He was found to be nearer to the town he was going to. In another version, the earth was ordered by Allah to shrink and make the distance smaller, so that he was admitted to Heaven.

How does Allah forgive us?

When we commit a sin, four witnesses are established against us.

a) The place we did the crime (i.e., scene of the murder).

"On that day, the earth will reveal all its secrets." (99:4)

b) The organ we used to commit the crime. "When their ears, their eyes, their skin will testify against them." (41:21)

"That day we seal up mouths, and hands speak out and feet bear witness to all that they did." (36:65)

c) The Angels who record the deeds (Kiraman Katebeen).

"The honored writers know what you do." (82:11)

d) "We record that which they send before them, and their footprints, and all things we have kept in a clear register." (36:12)

Now, with four such strong witnesses, how can we present ourselves to Allah? So He (the Al-Wakeel--the Defender), like a smart lawyer, removes all the witnesses against those whose repentance has been accepted, so that we present ourselves with a clean record. Case dissolved due to lack of witnesses. Hadith is like this. "When Allah accepts repentance and forgives His servant, then recording angels erase their records, organs lose their memories, and earth removes its stains of evidence so that when that person appears before Allah, there is no one to be a witness against him. Subhan Allah.

How to ask for forgiveness when Adam and Eve realized they had done wrong but did not know how to ask for forgiveness:

Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of forgiveness, and his Lord turned toward him, for He is Oft-Forgiving and Most Merciful. (2:37)

What were those words taught to Adam?

They said, "Our Lord, we have wronged our souls and if you forgive us not, and bestow not upon us your mercy, we shall be losers. (7:23)

How did the Prophet Muhammad (AS) teach Aisha (RA) to ask for forgiveness in Ramadan?

O my Lord, forgive me, because you love to forgive, thus forgive me, O you Merciful!

Remember, asking for forgiveness is not just for our sins, but also for our needs as well.

And I have said! Seek forgiveness from your Lord. Lo! He is oft-forgiving (if you ask for forgiveness). He will give you plenty of rain, He will give you wealth and sons, and assign you Heaven and Rivers in the Heaven. (Surah Nuh:10-12)

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Forgiveness is not as deep in Islam.

Reading the Qu-ran, one senses a deep sense of loss, because love and compassion are not at Islam's core. Now I imagine Mindful will try to argue otherwise, but in reading the Qu-ran, one does not feel peace or love, but tension.

Forgiveness in Islam is very, very conditional. If one is not a disbeliever, if one hasn't caused other to disbelieve, and so on ....

It is no wonder Muslims have trouble forgiving as their religion doesn't seem to encourage it.

There is no real redemption or day of Atonement where one tries to reconcile with God. That is the emptiness I feel when studying Islam, no love.

Here is a discussion which makes it sound very ritualistic and unreasonable to expect forgiveness:

well...reading Quran and embracing the true meaning are totally different storeis . but seeing your passion toward forgiveness and love ,arouses a question here " would you pardon Bin Ladan"? or better to say "are you allowed to pardon Bin Ladan?"

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

well...reading Quran and embracing the true meaning are totally different storeis . but seeing your passion toward forgiveness and love ,arouses a question here " would you pardon Bin Ladan"? or better to say "are you allowed to pardon Bin Ladan?"

It depends on the realm.

He would need to face legal justice, and that would not result in happiness for him. Compassion and charity do not mean a person who breaks a law, necessarily escapes the governmental punishment. But it is not my place to implement that punishment. That must be done either according to the rules of war or post-war regulations. Fortunately, I am not involved in that.

However, am I as a Christian allowed to harbor resentment toward him? No. Even he must be forgiven by a believer. Am I or other Christians perfect in achieving this? Not by a long shot. Of the people I harbor, improper resentments toward, he's not high on the list, though I do not think highly of his actions. I do not walk around hating him, as I have better things to do.

Again a model Christian will have already forgiven him in his heart. Judge good Mormons and Christians by this standard, not by the less the good example I may set.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

It depends on the realm.

He would need to face legal justice, and that would not result in happiness for him. Compassion and charity do not mean a person who breaks a law, necessarily escapes the governmental punishment. But it is not my place to implement that punishment. That must be done either according to the rules of war or post-war regulations. Fortunately, I am not involved in that.

However, am I as a Christian allowed to harbor resentment toward him? No. Even he must be forgiven by a believer. Am I or other Christians perfect in achieving this? Not by a long shot. Of the people I harbor, improper resentments toward, he's not high on the list, though I do not think highly of his actions. I do not walk around hating him, as I have better things to do.

Again a model Christian will have already forgiven him in his heart. Judge good Mormons and Christians by this standard, not by the less the good example I may set.

Ofcourse ,its perfect to forgive ,as we are always in mad hope to be forgiven by God..but let me see if i got your statements precisely ..

you are saying "Bin Ladan" or any one else who has done such a crime and a true believer 's forgiveness isnot probably going to make him change his intention/attitude/belief ..is still deserved to recieve pardon?

or you are saying that a true believer ,is supposed to bestow forgiveness just becuase he is God's mirror on earth??

i honestly would like to judge mormons and christians by the offering standards as i hope you would care to do the same.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

Ofcourse ,its perfect to forgive ,as we are always in mad hope to be forgiven by God..but let me see if i got your statements precisely ..

you are saying "Bin Ladan" or any one else who has done such a crime and a true believer 's forgiveness isnot probably going to make him change his intention/attitude/belief ..is still deserved to recieve pardon?

or you are saying that a true believer ,is supposed to bestow forgiveness just becuase he is God's mirror on earth??

i honestly would like to judge mormons and christians by the offering standards as i hope you would care to do the same.

At this point, I don't understand your language.

"Bestow a pardon". This language is not religious, but legalistic in our idiom. Thus, I'm uncertain as to your message.

And because your world operates differently than ours, it is difficult for you to understand the distinctions. Religious authority has no legal authority.

President Bush can bestow a pardon, but our church leaders cannot.

As I understand the ayatollah system in your country, religious and legal authority are one and the same. Thus it must be difficult to distinguish between man's law and the law of religion.

Thus, the land can impose its punishment and the religious people judge a man NOT in their hearts.

Does this make any sense? It might not to me, if I lived where you reside.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

At this point, I don't understand your language.

"Bestow a pardon". This language is not religious, but legalistic in our idiom. Thus, I'm uncertain as to your message.

And because your world operates differently than ours, it is difficult for you to understand the distinctions. Religious authority has no legal authority.

President Bush can bestow a pardon, but our church leaders cannot.

actually i was wondering about your personal opinion ,as some one who would write the law as a MAN..since there are always some men who develop the law and as a human being they are surrounded by thier personal beliefs whether religious or non religious ... and there is no way to prove that those men would totally disregard thier beliefs in writing law.

as side note ..many claim ..president Bush middle east policy ,and particularly iraq war is a preface of what he envisions as his religious beliefs.

turning to the topic ..islam has tremendous teachings which endorse remittal and remission in day to day lives. we have quite alot anecdotal evidences of how forgiving muslims are when it comes to the personal conflicts/attack ...like in murder case ..the parents of the murdered would pardon the murderer ( engaged in a street fight or so ) in terms of divine forgiveness in a hope to recieve mercy from Allah, as we are promised to.

and there arenot even rare ,they just dont catch your cameras for some reasons!!!!!????

As I understand the ayatollah system in your country, religious and legal authority are one and the same. Thus it must be difficult to distinguish between man's law and the law of religion.

Thus, the land can impose its punishment and the religious people judge a man NOT in their hearts.

the law in our theocracy is quite compatible with the intenational law with the exception of that we define man as a part of a whole ..so in order to have an accurate law we would have to consider 1) the man 2) the universe 3) the relation of these two .

so becuase we believe that God ,the creator has the entire knowledge of all three parts,(while the human possess almost no knowlege in these realms) we cannot neglect his role in the law which governs on human.

Does this make any sense? It might not to me, if I lived where you reside.

yes ,your words do make sense to me..what actually doesnt make sense to me ,is what a human being is relying on to write the law ,to forgive or not forgive ,to punish or not to punish . if its not his belief ,so what is it ?? and if there is literally something which influence people 's decision making centres, so why 'shouldnot it be God ?

[Archaea]

I did not understand your post.

In our society, it is easy to disconnect sections, belief from society. We can write laws independent of our laws.

If I were to write a law, I would do so independent of my personal religious beliefs, and do mix the two.