Proposition 8 take a break..we can reach our destination..but we're still a ways away

[SeattleUte]

Moreover, it's a push poll in that it targets everyone under the sun, not just a sampling.

Why lie about what you're doing if righteousness is on your side?

They have a First Amendment right to do this. But so do porn houses. I consider this on the same moral footing.

[TripletDaddy]

When I went, there were no children there. As I stated before, there weren't many people there at all. Given the size of our stake and the importance and mandate from the FP, I would have expected at least 100 or more. On the other hand, when the stake has the annual Trunk or Treat in October, the entire parking lot is packed and it takes the kids a couple of hours to go to every car and visit and say hi.

Given that the political climate in OC is ultra conservative, I am guessing that most people today will report back in Church as having a positive experience.

In thinking about it, I wonder if this "tiered" approach each Saturday is partly to ensure the positive experience. In other words, everyone goes out yesterday simply to ask the yes/no questions...pretty easy task. Little chance of heated debate. Today, the members report back that there was little contention, it was actually fun, etc.....those who previously did not want to participate because they were nervous are more likely to show up the following Saturday.....but next Saturday, the task is not "temperature taking," but something else (don't know yet, hasn't been announced).

My observation is that the lack of turnout this weekend was not political, it was practical.......when push comes to shove, most of us do not want to give up 3-5 hours of our Saturday to knock doors, regardless of the cause.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

When I went, there were no children there. As I stated before, there weren't many people there at all. Given the size of our stake and the importance and mandate from the FP, I would have expected at least 100 or more. On the other hand, when the stake has the annual Trunk or Treat in October, the entire parking lot is packed and it takes the kids a couple of hours to go to every car and visit and say hi.

Given that the political climate in OC is ultra conservative, I am guessing that most people today will report back in Church as having a positive experience.

In thinking about it, I wonder if this "tiered" approach each Saturday is partly to ensure the positive experience. In other words, everyone goes out yesterday simply to ask the yes/no questions...pretty easy task. Little chance of heated debate. Today, the members report back that there was little contention, it was actually fun, etc.....those who previously did not want to participate because they were nervous are more likely to show up the following Saturday.....but next Saturday, the task is not "temperature taking," but something else (don't know yet, hasn't been announced).

My observation is that the lack of turnout this weekend was not political, it was practical.......when push comes to shove, most of us do not want to give up 3-5 hours of our Saturday to knock doors, regardless of the cause.

Thanks for taking the time to go, collect, scan and post. It's interesting to follow all this.

I'll be mailing you the encrypted coordinates of a dead drop location and a cyanide pill. If the protectmarriage.com Secret Police find out about you turning double agent, may God help us all.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

NOT benign. A pitch masquerading as a poll. It's a push poll, which is by definition dishonest and unethical. The fourth paragraph is the pitch. No legitimate poll would do that. Yes, pitch polls are always brief, which is one of the signs of a push poll. Despicable. As we've discussed, honesty, autheticity, is not an important LDS value. This makes my blood boil.

TD, were there kids there?

I'm not a Prop 8 apologist, but your reaction here seems more than a little over the top (although you, more than anyone I know, relishes the chance to take shots at the LDS Church, so I guess I understand). Back on point... note the opening line of the presentation--the canvasser says up front he/she is there on behalf of Yes on Prop. 8. How devious, dishonest or unethical is that?

They're gathering the information so they'll know whom to encourage to vote in November, and whom to leave alone. If that makes your blood boil, you really ought to see a doctor or a therapist, as its boiling point seems to be similar to that of nitrogen.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Originally Posted by exUte

and people like you..........

You give these folks credibility and sympathy!

exUte, that you would read such stuff suggests a fascination with a small part of the homosexual community that I find disturbing, if unsurprising. If you think that's representative of most gays, you're even more isolated and uninformed than I imagined.

[ute4ever]

Here is a side question for you church intellectuals.

If I correctly understand the history behind President Woodruff's manifesto putting polygamy on the shelf for a time, it remained a true principle, but external forces were about to leave a heavy blow upon the church, possibly crippling it. So the revelation came to step aside from that practice for the time being.

In this day and age, nobody is going to send a militia to South Temple and threaten to exterminate the church if they do not comply with same-gender equality. That's because we don't point rifles at one another anymore; rather we sue each other.

To that end, if Proposition 8 fails, what is the probability that some day the church will be so overwhelmed by lawsuits that another manifesto will be issued, putting this "policy" on the shelf? And the church's present initiative for its members to engage in a rallying cry at this particular point in time, is a precurser to such a scenario?

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

Here is a side question for you church intellectuals.

If I correctly understand the history behind President Woodruff's manifesto putting polygamy on the shelf for a time, it remained a true principle, but external forces were about to leave a heavy blow upon the church, possibly crippling it. So the revelation came to step aside from that practice for the time being.

In this day and age, nobody is going to send a militia to South Temple and threaten to exterminate the church if they do not comply with same-gender equality. That's because we don't point rifles at one another anymore; rather we sue each other.

To that end, if Proposition 8 fails, what is the probability that some day the church will be so overwhelmed by lawsuits that another manifesto will be issued, putting this "policy" on the shelf? And the church's present initiative for its members to engage in a rallying cry at this particular point in time, is a precurser to such a scenario?

At this particular point in time, I don't see the basis for any lawsuit against any religion that deems homosexuality to be a sin. Religions are exempt in their beliefs and the government would have no basis or compelling reason to force religions to ordain gays to their ministries, etc.

Lawsuits like Bob Jones were not an indictment of the right to believe...but rather, the right to discriminate once you start taking handouts from the government.

I said almost a month ago that of all Church branches, BYU would likely be the most at-risk to be affected by any of this (a la Bob Jones), but I am not sure to what extent BYU accepts state or federal money (if at all). I don't think the Church is at any risk for successful lawsuits on this matter, frankly. I could be off base.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar

I'm not a Prop 8 apologist, but your reaction here seems more than a little over the top (although you, more than anyone I know, relishes the chance to take shots at the LDS Church, so I guess I understand). Back on point... note the opening line of the presentation--the canvasser says up front he/she is there on behalf of Yes on Prop. 8. How devious, dishonest or unethical is that?

They're gathering the information so they'll know whom to encourage to vote in November, and whom to leave alone. If that makes your blood boil, you really ought to see a doctor or a therapist, as its boiling point seems to be similar to that of nitrogen.

Seattle has admitted that he prefers to read reviews of books rather than read the books himself. He probably sent a copy of the script that DDD posted to exmormon.com and then read the synopsis they gave of it. That would explain his hostility.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

Seattle has admitted that he prefers to read reviews of books rather than read the books himself.

Can you say something intelligent for once, Eintstein? It's books about the LDS Church I don't read.

Now, back on point, no one has denied nor could they deny that this is a push poll.

[YOhio]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Now, back on point, no one has denied nor could they deny that this is a push poll.

It's fair to say that this is a push poll, albeit very benign. It's unscientific and there can be little valuable information obtained through this method of polling. Though the poll script is written in a factual manner, it's clear that the taker is presenting Prop 8 in a positive light. Where I veer from you is that I don't think it's a big deal. Nobody in their right mind opens the door to a stranger who is selling/proselytizing/fundraising/politicking with the expectation of objectivity. This is much different than a phone call from a professional telemarketer smearing an opposition candidate.