Men Bad?

[RockyBalboa]

Being a 30+ Singles guy in Utah is pretty much a cacophony of sad and humorous stories of which I could tell for hours.

From my experiences the Utah girls very much for the most part have sticks up their butts.

Fusnik is right in that dating here is such a ridiculous challenge. It's amazing how many here are raised with the perception that they have to marry Peter Priesthood and then if into the marriage they find out that he isn't in the Prophet's bloodline, well then hey, gotta get out of that one. Now yes, I'm being very sarcastic, but in general it seems here in Utah you find a few good gems here and there, but for the most part they're spoiled babies or California transplants that have the princess attitude.

[realtall]

That was very entertaining; A lot of interesting thought and opinions on the subject. Just to be clear, though, my point/question was:

Why is it ok for women(particularly LDS) to publicly bash & insult men in mixed company and men seem to be expected to be docile & just take it. And don't do the same thing to the women because that would be sexist. I am not suggesting that men should have carte blanche to publicly castigate their wifes. Far from it. I am simply suggesting that perhaps its not ok for women to do the same to men.

The issue here is not how hard it is for women to be wives & mothers. Its why do they get a free pass on this sort of negative public behavior. Do the men feel guilty for their wives not holding the priesthood? That is an interesting theory but I tend to think not, at least most of the time. I think that the more likely cause is the church has really been hammering the 'respect & love your wives' & 'they work so hard and you are just a clod' message. I ad libbed a little on the last one. I think that the message has been so pervasive that people tend to bend over backwards to make their behaviour fit how they thought that they heard the message. And it just gets so cutesy & trendy to do it that it just takes on a life of its own.

Don't mistake what I'm saying. I 100% agree that men should love and cherish & appreciate their wives hard work. But does this only go one way?

Originally Posted by tooblue

... you I and the mojority of men on this board WILL NEVER understand that. Her actions were ill advised, but not uncommon and certianly FORGIVABLE!

Forgiveness is not the issue here. Tact & courtesy is.

[All-American]

How on earth did I miss out on this topic until now? Fascinating stuff.

First, my explaination as to why the double standard exists, then my evaluation thereof.

I think that the double standard is a result of the fact that men hold the priesthood, serve in leadership positions, and stand in the limelight in the church while women do not. Part of the man-bashing seems to be little more than placating the women, and even general authorities are in on it. Ever hear the one about why Mormons don't believe in gender equality? "Men wouldn't dream of considering themselves equal to women." I've heard variations on this theme plenty of times.

There is, however, a doctrinal reasoning to the preferential treatment. A worthy man who has held the preparatory priesthood and used the gift responsably is considered the equal of a worthy woman who has not. In other words, though man and woman are considered equal, a man has to earn the right to receive his priesthood, whereas a woman receives it by birth. Given this, it's only natural that a man would feel that women have a head start on the road to perfection. (Be it noted, however, that a woman is as capable of defiling her womanhood as a man is of defiling his priesthood.)

All in all, bashing of either gender is inappropriate, as it inevitably involves slandering womanhood or priesthood, both of which are to be considered sacred. As has been emphasized time and time again, men and women are to be considered equal partners in the pursuit of exaltation, as man is not without the woman neither the woman without the man.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by realtall

Just to be clear, though, my point/question was:

Why is it ok for women(particularly LDS) to publicly bash & insult men in mixed company and men seem to be expected to be docile & just take it.

Man, I love these "Women-good, Men-bad" discussions. The Church should direct Bishops to do this every fifth Sunday. I bet attendance would sore that day.

Why do we confine this phenomena to Utah and Mormons? My view is that Utah and Mormons simply reflect societal values and attitudes. Oprah has built an empire and essentially started her own religion based on this very issue. Watch The View sometime and it is full of this crap. This theme runs heavily through much of our popular media: the dumb man seeking only to satisfy his baser desires (Homer or Bart) tolerated by the intelligent, thinking, self-actualized woman (Marge or Lisa). It's funny because it tends to mimic reality. So why so surprised that it shows up in Priesthood Meeting or Relief Society? I will admit that we put a unique, rather simplistic LDS spin on it all. That said, as I look around at some of the simpletons I call my Priesthood brothers, they are fully worthy of the stereotype.

Let me state the obvious: women and men approach life differently for a myriad of reasons driven deep into our psyches by millions of years of evolution. The key is to take our respective programming and turn it into something truly exceptional within the bonds of marriage, which ultimately is where all this should get sorted out anyway (not on Oprah, not at the Democratic National Convention, and not even at Church). My experience shows that a lot of repentance and forgiveness is involved. I have faced the frustrated rage of Mrs. myboynoah after a bad day with kids more times than I would have liked, but that is not the sum total of who she is. Likewise, I am not the sum total of what I display during my moments of weakness. We're in this together, and strangely, after nearly 20 years of marriage, I think we are finally really communicating. We stumble along and The Church is there to assist, hence discussions about how men can be better husbands and women better wives. I just wish it would reflect more Gospel and less societal biases.

A dumb story on male/female differences. We’ve been sucked into some kind of progressive Christmas dinner on Friday night with the neighbors (see, these things don't happen exclusively among Utah Mormons). We are the first course, "light appetizers." The next course will be "heavy appetizers," followed by desserts. Mrs. myboynoah discussed her "light appetizer" ideas (meatballs, egg rolls, etc.) with "heavy appetizer" woman and was promptly told that those items constituted "heavy appetizers." Change of plans and Mrs. myboynoah has settled on sushi a number of spreads with sliced baguettes. One spread will be made primarily of roasted peppers. The dilemma: one of "heavy appetizer" woman's dishes will be roasted peppers with sausages.

Woman's reaction: "Arrrggghhhhh! She had roasted peppers and now I have roasted peppers! Arrrggghhhhhh! Why would she do this to me?!?!?!?"

Man's reaction: "Hey, more roasted peppers! And this time with sausages! Yoohoooo!."

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

One spread will be made primarily of roasted peppers. The dilemma: one of "heavy appetizer" woman's dishes will be roasted peppers with sausages.

Woman's reaction: "Arrrggghhhhh! She had roasted peppers and now I have roasted peppers! Arrrggghhhhhh! Why would she do this to me?!?!?!?"

Wow, that's beyond my comprehension. Maybe that's the female equivalent of undercutting a guy on a layup?

[tooblue]

Your wife should change her plans at the last minute and include a charcuterie plate.

No cheese?

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

Wow, that's beyond my comprehension. Maybe that's the female equivalent of undercutting a guy on a layup?

Wow, how profound. I think the analogy fits. You apparently comprehend more than you let on.

Having been undercut on lay-ups several times in my life, I understand the raw emotion that will hopefully be on display Friday evening (or at least just below the surface). The entertainment prospects for this little progressive soirée Friday night are looking up significantly.

P.S. Mrs. myboynoah called and my two boys, out of school on Christmas break and apparently bored out of their gourds, have started torturing my daughters' Barbies by driving nails through their heads. Women - good, Men - bad.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

P.S. Mrs. myboynoah called and my two boys, out of school on Christmas break and apparently bored out of their gourds, have started torturing my daughters' Barbies by driving nails through their heads. Women - good, Men - bad.

LOL! I was at a Christmas party last night where all of the little kids were running around but nowhere near the adults. My friend went looking for his young son at the end of the party. He found him in one of the bedrooms pulling the heads off of all the barbies.

[UtahDan]

I'm getting in late on this discussion, but I think part of what is in play here is what some people have called the "feminization" of our culture in general. There is not room here to go into the details, but for a long time now societal norms have shifted toward "female" approaches, behaviors, and reactions being acceptable and those traditionally considered "male" less so.

This is true from schools, to social settings, to the work place to world affairs. In some respects this is good and in others it is bad, IMO. But fellas, think for a moment about yourself on the day of your wedding and think about the guy you are now. How many things about you have changed at your wife's encouragement? I would say quite a few and probably overall for the good. Now think of how many times you have even broached the topic of something she ought to change. This was not the case in our grandparents generation.

Again, I think the civilizing effect women have on us is by and large good. But I also think that there are certain areas where a "male" approach to things is better (there is a reason we were created male and female, to compliment one another). I think to some degree we swing back and forth on this culturally. Being a "John Wayne" sort of man has been a slur for a long time having formerly been what every guy wanted to be and the kind of guy every woman wanted. It will swing back. I think someone once astutely observed that if we as men really became exactly the men that women say they want us to be, they wouldn't want us any more.

Anyway, the culture right now has bought into the idea that the female approach to most things is superior and so what are good and bad characteristics of us as men are defined in that frame work. This too has pluses and minuses.

We as a culture are unsusual (I think someone has already said this) in that we encourage women to be stay at home moms in a society that tells women they can have it all and can work while their kids are in day care. I know tons of LDS who do this and make it work FWIW. The point is that to convince women that they don't really want to work we have elevated their role as mother and homemaker to quasi-godly status in our attitudes and rhectoric and the unintended consequences is that the role of provider and husband has been devalued. I don't know too many women who think that their man deserves any slack because he busts his hump at work, but I know plenty of guys who think that their wives walk on water for what is done at home in their absence. One is not in reality more valuable than the other, but I think it illustrates my point that even we as men have bought the notion that what we do is nothing by comparision to what they do.

All that said, I don't think the answer is to devalue the female gender. I like my wife right on the pedistal I have her on. She can stay there without ever doubting that I couldn't possibly value what she does more than I do. The answer is (and I don't know how we get there) for women to have their men on the same pedistal, loving and respecting and admiring them just as much but for perhaps different reasons.

I know my wife has a real distaste for the husband bashing she encounters among her church friends and says so. Maybe we just need to encourage women to treat men with the same reverence we teach men to treat women with. Men need more instruction on this it is true, but women need some as well and don't appear to be getting much of any in any context at this moment in our culture history both in the church and out.