What kind of men does God want?

[MikeWaters]

I was talking to my father about this Danzig affair, and he brought up that there have long been rumors that in the last days there will be a sifting in the church, and many will leave.

Whether this is true or not, I have no idea. But I reflected on the kinds of things that might lead to people leaving. And I wondered if it might be question of moral conscience.

I thought about the most difficult things that God has asked men to do. The two that came to mind were Nephi's murder of Laban, and Abraham's almost-murder of his son. And then I reflected on some recent jokes around here about only wanting "made-men" here on Cougarguard. Prove your self. Does God only want made men? I believe one of the general authorities once said that we will ALL have our Abraham-Issac moment, that it is not possible to receive exaltation without this.

I understand that God allowed Christ to die. But that's a lot different than God himself putting a knife to his carotid. God didn't kill Jesus.

Will heaven be devoid of men that walked away when God asked them to murder their children?

We read news accounts, too frequently, of mothers and fathers who kill their children and then say that God told them to do it. We blame mental illness. Or evil. But do we not consider that perhaps what they say is true, and they are now holy before God, having made the greatest sacrifice?

I don't like this vision of God. I don't like it at all. If there is a place for men who walk away when asked to do evil, then I hope to be in that place.

Do good and evil transcend God and Satan? If they do, that's a frightening thought, that ought to give one pause. I prefer to believe in a universe where they always coincide--God and the good. But if forced to choose between God and the good, where is your allegiance?

Thus, perhaps, the great sifting.

[smokymountainrain]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

We read news accounts, too frequently, of mothers and fathers who kill their children and then say that God told them to do it. We blame mental illness. Or evil. But do we not consider that perhaps what they say is true, and they are now holy before God, having made the greatest sacrifice?

When has God ever had anybody go through with killing an immediate family member?

[MikeWaters]

*noted that many scholars believe Isaac was not a child at the time of the binding

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by smokymountainrain

When has God ever had anybody go through with killing an immediate family member?

What do you mean "had"? Are you saying free agency doesn't exist and God forces people to do things?

Has God ever asked someone to commit genocide? Careful with your answer here, you are wading into the deep water with the big boys.

[smokymountainrain]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

What do you mean "had"? Are you saying free agency doesn't exist and God forces people to do things?

Has God ever asked someone to commit genocide? Careful with your answer here, you are wading into the deep water with the big boys.

That part in bold made me chuckle. I'm not sure what it is supposed to mean, but either way, it was funny.

To answer your question, I should have used the term "asked". So I'll rephrase...When has God ever asked a man or woman to go through with killing an immediate family member?

I think my question is relevant to the comment I quoted from your original post.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I was talking to my father about this Danzig affair, and he brought up that there have long been rumors that in the last days there will be a sifting in the church, and many will leave.

Whether this is true or not, I have no idea. But I reflected on the kinds of things that might lead to people leaving. And I wondered if it might be question of moral conscience.

I thought about the most difficult things that God has asked men to do. The two that came to mind were Nephi's murder of Laban, and Abraham's almost-murder of his son. And then I reflected on some recent jokes around here about only wanting "made-men" here on Cougarguard. Prove your self. Does God only want made men? I believe one of the general authorities once said that we will ALL have our Abraham-Issac moment, that it is not possible to receive exaltation without this.

I understand that God allowed Christ to die. But that's a lot different than God himself putting a knife to his carotid. God didn't kill Jesus.

Will heaven be devoid of men that walked away when God asked them to murder their children?

We read news accounts, too frequently, of mothers and fathers who kill their children and then say that God told them to do it. We blame mental illness. Or evil. But do we not consider that perhaps what they say is true, and they are now holy before God, having made the greatest sacrifice?

I don't like this vision of God. I don't like it at all. If there is a place for men who walk away when asked to do evil, then I hope to be in that place.

Do good and evil transcend God and Satan? If they do, that's a frightening thought, that ought to give one pause. I prefer to believe in a universe where they always coincide--God and the good. But if forced to choose between God and the good, where is your allegiance?

Thus, perhaps, the great sifting.

This is going to be a mullah post.

I like this idea of loyalty and devotion you're throwing out, Mike. I agree we all have an Abraham moment. The example I see as being more obvious and applicable is the young, rich man that Jesus told to sell all that he has, give to the poor and follow him. I think our trials and tests are uniquely carved to make maximize our growth. Many times they seem to cause a complete rebirth or reinvention of oneself.

For Danzig, maybe his test was to give up his political conscience for God?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by jay santos

This is going to be a mullah post.

I like this idea of loyalty and devotion you're throwing out, Mike. I agree we all have an Abraham moment. The example I see as being more obvious and applicable is the young, rich man that Jesus told to sell all that he has, give to the poor and follow him. I think our trials and tests are uniquely carved to make maximize our growth. Many times they seem to cause a complete rebirth or reinvention of oneself.

For Danzig, maybe his test was to give up his political conscience for God?

You choose the more convenient and morally untroubling scenario. Good choice.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

You choose the more convenient and morally untroubling scenario. Good choice.

I wonder about those Abrahamic moments. I'm not certain I believe it occurred at all or as described.

For me, I just can't see God asking somebody to murder his own child. So I suppose it's after the fact creation to point to the sacrifice of Christ.

And Nephi seems tormented by his decision to kill Laban. What if Nephi wasn't really asked, but this was Nephi's way of explaining why he did what he did.

So maybe, just maybe, these "Abrahamic" moments don't exist. We won't face monumental moments, because it seems to me, most of us will most probably face little moments which either build or erode our faith.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

You choose the more convenient and morally untroubling scenario. Good choice.

Not really. Put myself in Danzig's shoes. I harbor some very strong, personal opinions that differ from current church policy. Like the rich man's riches in New Testament, these opinions define me.

Now the church strongarms me to force me to give up those opinions and publicly humiliate me and castrate me in the process, it would be a very painful thing. It would definitely not be the most convenient and morally untroubling choice to denounce my personal opinion and side with the church that I thought was wrong and bullying me.

I'm not casting judgement on Danzig here. I'm just throwing out my belief that loyalty to the institution as an offering of sacrifice to God is a powerful concept.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Now the church strongarms me to force me to give up those opinions and publicly humiliate me and castrate me in the process, it would be a very painful thing. It would definitely not be the most convenient and morally untroubling choice to denounce my personal opinion and side with the church that I thought was wrong and bullying me.

Lets keep in mind the church did not do this. Had Danzig not published his letter in the newspaper (and who knows what else he said on top), the church wouldn't have "castrated" him (what a term!).

Much of this, whatever mistakes might have been made by the church, was brought on by his own actions.