Church makes gays and their children apostates

[ute4ever]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Why is that I am pretty safe in saying that 99% of members don't expect the President of the church to address this issue in any kind of public give-and-take forum such as a televised interview or a press conference?

He already does. You know why prophets speak in parables, right? Start with his Sep 2014 Ensign First Presidency message.

[MikeWaters]

or do they speak in private handbooks?

[ute4ever]

Yesterday, weren't you the one who referenced the gifts of the Spirit? Conversion doesn't come press conferences or secret handbooks. The prophets have spoken on this issue plenty during general conference sessions and authorized lessons. Regardless, those are merely springboards for the listener to seek, ponder, study, pray, gain a personal witness, and answers to his questions. Don't be like the children of Israel, who were told they were wicked because they had to be commanded in all things.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

Yesterday, weren't you the one who referenced the gifts of the Spirit? Conversion doesn't come press conferences or secret handbooks. The prophets have spoken on this issue plenty during general conference sessions and authorized lessons. Regardless, those are merely springboards for the listener to seek, ponder, study, pray, gain a personal witness, and answers to his questions. Don't be like the children of Israel, who were told they were wicked because they had to be commanded in all things.

First, this is the CHOI, which in its forward states it is book of policies, not doctrines. How the provisions are written is unknown to us, because the Church chooses not disclose how or even why it is written.

So you can get off your high horse as if this is a revelation delivered from Moses to the Children of Israel. It is an administrative document, not scripture.

Second, unless we are bishops or stake presidents, we do not have to follow anything in regard to this change in policy. So your lecturing in heavy handed fashion, is either extreme sarcasm, to which I would say, well done, or completely tone deaf.

It is a new policy that doesn't make sense to many, many members. If you can only assign unfaithfulness to those who have problems with the policy, then you don't get it.

[ute4ever]

Originally Posted by Archaea

It is a new policy that doesn't make sense to many, many members. If you can only assign unfaithfulness to those who have problems with the policy, then you don't get it.

See post 78. If don't like the new policy and want to better understand the reasoning, there's a better way to go about it than murmuring and throwing the brethren under the bus.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

See post 78. If don't like the new policy and want to better understand the reasoning, there's a better way to go about it than murmuring and throwing the brethren under the bus.

You forget D&C Chapters 8 and 9.

We have been given brains for a reason.

And the Church has made mistakes on policies. Remember the little policy on who could hold the priesthood that so many members tried desperately to defend which ultimately the Church (a) rescinded (most thankfully) and (b) later declared to be mysterious in its origin and in fact rejected all forms of racism.

I can also remember an infamous "policy" on oral sex that was quickly rescinded. So, yes, the Church makes terrible mistakes on policies. If the Church is not strong enough to withstand questions from its rank and file members, then it is not strong enough at all. And calling anybody with doubts or questions a traitor or unfaithful is abominable.

This policy is a huge mistake with no upside. There is no benefit to the Church and a lots of downside.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

Yesterday, weren't you the one who referenced the gifts of the Spirit? Conversion doesn't come press conferences or secret handbooks. The prophets have spoken on this issue plenty during general conference sessions and authorized lessons. Regardless, those are merely springboards for the listener to seek, ponder, study, pray, gain a personal witness, and answers to his questions. Don't be like the children of Israel, who were told they were wicked because they had to be commanded in all things.

I don't recall the previous lessons and talks where it was discussed why certain infants can't be blessed. Or certain children can't be baptized or ordained.

[MikeWaters]

This was written for Ute4ever:

This policy feels wrong to me. It feels wrong in the very center of my gut. I am not so prideful, however, to think that I speak for the church or that I have some extra spiritual gifts that the brethren do not. A very good bishop once explained to me how he has a bird’s eye view of his ward, and would often know of certain problems in one area but would have to weigh things in the balance of the bigger picture. I trust that the brethren have a bigger picture of the church than I do, but I also can’t ignore how I feel in my gut.

So I ask God to be patient with me as I wrestle, and I know He hears that prayer and I feel His love for me. I ask that those in the church who aren’t fussed by this to also have patience with those of us who are, to not level accusations of faithlessness but to wait on us in hope.

http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/11/1...ence-and-hope/

[BlueK]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I don't recall the previous lessons and talks where it was discussed why certain infants can't be blessed. Or certain children can't be baptized or ordained.

exactly. No one here is arguing about what's in the law of chastity. We're talking about a new policy that deals with those who haven't sinned against that law.

And ute4ever's response in a nutshell basically is, "it's all good. Those children are in that situation because of something they did in the pre-earth life." That's not doctrine. It's just plain nutty, and frankly dangerous thinking in my view because it would seem to make it very easy to be flattered by the devil into thinking because you don't have that problem and were born into a favorable situation and your life has been pretty good that you must be just a little better than those poor saps. Maybe they actually brought that situation unto themselves, to quote King Benjamin.

[ute4ever]

Honestly, you use D&C 8-9 as justification for evil speaking of The Lord's anointed? The two sections are about receiving personal revelation and unlocking the mysteries of the kingdom, as well as being worthy to assist the prophet in his work. In faith.

Go back and re-read the start of this thread. It has been an attack on the poor judgment of the brethren from post #1.

It is apparent that you do not believe there is a time and a season for policies to come and go. I suppose on April 6, 1830, the church should have been founded with eight quorums of the seventy, a perpetual education fund, the saints gathered in Adam-Ondi-Ahman, and the plates unsealed.

While the initial focus was on these poor, woe begotten, innocent children, I shared many explanations that came from sources who I still will not cite, while you continued to howl as though these children were doomed to burn in purgatory.

As you continued to only fester on every possible bad scenario that this move could cause, not once seeking any possible good purpose or reason, instead ignoring anything positive and continuing to express your disgust with the brethren, I shifted from sharing explanations to calling you out for demonstrating the very behaviors that prophets for over a century have warned were precursors to apostasy.

If now you want to shift this back to those poor innocent children who won't be able to make eternal covenants while living in homes that are rooted in apostasy, as your last few posts have indicated, then fine, go back to page one. It has already been covered, including scriptures that support it.

Brethren, adieu.