The zealot defenders of blacks and the priesthood

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

Fine. There are other possibilities. Your Honor, I move that we strike the word "necessarily" from the record.

Let's move on.

You should also strike "must" and the several statements of "I believe" in reference to the "must" and "necessarily."

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Tex

Is it possible? I'll copout and say "sure, anything's possible." I don't find it likely, but handicapping God's involvement in each detail of the universe is an extremely difficult task.

I give you just a couple of examples from modern-day apostles (paraphrased, because they're from memory) that illustrate my thinking.

Neal Maxwell used to have a presentation he'd use with mission and stake presidents where he'd start with a "photo" of the Milky Way galaxy on an overhead and explain that God is God over all those creations. Then he'd put up an image of a DNA molecule and explain that God created it too, and he'd say, "God is in the details of that molecule." Then he'd quote C.S. Lewis' "living house" metaphor and say "God loves you too much to leave you the way you are, so he provides for you 'defining moments' that are highly customized."

And then I once heard Boyd Packer (sorry, Arch) say once (again, paraphrased): "When the veil is lifted and we can see our lives in the grand scope of history, we will be stunned and amazed at how intimately a role God played in our lives on a daily basis and we never knew it."

Now I find it very difficult to believe that we believe in a God who is in the details of our lives, so much so that he provides "customized defining moments" to shape us; that we believe in a God who we pray to about every little thing: from what job to take, to how to handle a church calling, to which door to knock on as a missionary; that we believe in a God who is aware of the hairs of our heads, who clothes the lillies of the fields--and yet when it comes to his church and his prophet, he sits back and just kinda allows things to run their course.

I may be wrong, but that's not how I see it working.



I think that's about right.



Your first sentence reminds me that you are a lawyer.

As to your second, as I said ... I wasn't the one to draw that conclusion. I was just repeating it, although I do agree that such is the inevitable conclusion. But either way, somehow I'm not surprised you chose to take issue with something almost entirely peripheral to the topic.

The universe with all its creations is amazing. And God's being aware of them in some sense and knowing how they function is a testament that we are nothing when compared to him. But I see all those examples as merely allegorical or analogous.

What you will cite as evidence, by way of authority, not argument is that (a) the universe and its creations are vast, (b) if God is aware of all these things, surely he's involved in them at a detailed level, but that's the end of your analysis.

I don't see that logically compelled.

In fact, because God has so much to manage, most great managers delegate but allow things to develop without constant micromanagers. So it seems to me, God may receive reports and observations but only intervenes if something won't correct itself.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by All-American

You're right, I overstated it.

Is it possible that God is passionately interested in the affairs of men and still leaves many of them in the hands of His children?

I find it hard to think this isn't the case. It is my best explanation for genocide, rape, racism, etc. God cares deeply but has created a plan that requires most of his childrens' affairs to be handled by his children while he tries to whisper to them helpful guidance that would be invaluable if they could only drown out the secondary noise and listen.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

In fact, because God has so much to manage, most great managers delegate but allow things to develop without constant micromanagers. So it seems to me, God may receive reports and observations but only intervenes if something won't correct itself.

Is God constrained by time and space inasmuch as there are innumerable things going on simultaneously that prevents Him from personally monitoring and dealing with each item as they happen?

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Is God constrained by time and space inasmuch as there are innumerable things going on simultaneously that prevents Him from personally monitoring and dealing with each item as they happen?

I agree to an extent. I think he COULD get involved in each item if he wanted to, but I think he chooses not to.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I agree to an extent. I think he COULD get involved in each item if he wanted to, but I think he chooses not to.

And here we are right back to same discussion from earlier this week. When one becomes a GA/apostle/prophet, is one's free agency abdicated? I think not.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Archaea

The universe with all its creations is amazing. And God's being aware of them in some sense and knowing how they function is a testament that we are nothing when compared to him. But I see all those examples as merely allegorical or analogous.

What you will cite as evidence, by way of authority, not argument is that (a) the universe and its creations are vast, (b) if God is aware of all these things, surely he's involved in them at a detailed level, but that's the end of your analysis.

Well, I didn't really say "surely he's involved" ... Maxwell did. I don't mean to do the old "argue with him, not me" tact, but I accept his words at face value. If he says God's in the details of our lives, I believe him.

And it strikes me as implausible to think he's involved in the detailed minutiae of my life, and yet not in his own church's. That is a logical argument.

Originally Posted by Archaea

I don't see that logically compelled.

In fact, because God has so much to manage, most great managers delegate but allow things to develop without constant micromanagers. So it seems to me, God may receive reports and observations but only intervenes if something won't correct itself.

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

I agree to an extent. I think he COULD get involved in each item if he wanted to, but I think he chooses not to.

Well there's no way to know for sure, is there. Based on what I know of the scriptures and what I've heard those who are in authority say, I choose to believe otherwise.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Is God constrained by time and space inasmuch as there are innumerable things going on simultaneously that prevents Him from personally monitoring and dealing with each item as they happen?

I cannot fathom the unfathomable. In essence I cannot understand how something not constrained by time and space as we are can do it and to what extent that thing can do it, because I do not know what the possibilities are.

It seems people when contemplating God state, well he's not constrained by time and space as we are, thus he must not be constrained at all? Is that the only possibility? It may be the correct one, but I doubt it's logically the only one but because I am not aware of the possibilities, it becomes a fruitless exercise for me to assume one is preferable to another, just because one justifies a theological position.

Please tell how and to what extent God traverses the universe/multiverse. If you don't know, then you don't if there are any limitations on what he can and cannot do.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Tex

Well there's no way to know for sure, is there. Based on what I know of the scriptures and what I've heard those who are in authority say, I choose to believe otherwise.

Most of these theological speculations by religious leaders might fall in the now discredited concept of Adam-God. To the best of my knowledge, none of them were theoretical physicists with knowledge of quatum mechanics, nor have any claimed any grand vision where the mechanics of the universe and God's dealings with the universe have been revealed.

You have statements designed to console people that God is aware, what God desires to change and to affect, He can and will. That is the primary purpose of most of those declarations.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

And here we are right back to same discussion from earlier this week. When one becomes a GA/apostle/prophet, is one's free agency abdicated? I think not.

LOL! I was thinking the very same thing. Particularly when Tex said, "I don't find it likely, but handicapping God's involvement in each detail of the universe is an extremely difficult task." I see a direct parallel between what he says there and finding it extremely difficult to determine what words he says to a prophet and what words a prophet says on his own.