Intervention show--gay LDS guy

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Tex

One of the PR problems the gay community faces is its own radical wing. It's not surprising to me that folks associate "gay lifestyle" with the behavior santos described, when that is the common public face associated with it.

Militant gays do not trot out the successful "life partner" pair of two men or two women living in suburbia with three well-adjusted children as the face of their "lifestyle." And it's not like I'm interested in going out of my way to figure out what terms gays find offensive and what they don't.

Trying to be PC is a fulltime job, and not one that I get paid for.

I agree with Tex.

[jay santos]

A critical factor in this, IMHO, and maybe the most important factor is how representative this kid Troy's gay experience is of the entire gay community.

From the data points I've collected through life experience: media, literature, a few gay people I've known personally, pop culture, this seems to be representative of a very large aspect of the gay community.

If it is, then it seems very possible that the answer is to treat it like a disease (drug addiction, bulimia, alcoholism, sex addiction, whatever) and help people recover from it, not encourage them in their right to legitimize and mainstream it.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by jay santos

If it is, then it seems very possible that the answer is to treat it like a disease (drug addiction, bulimia, alcoholism, sex addiction, whatever) and help people recover from it, not encourage them in their right to legitimize and mainstream it.

Remember when I said language tells the truth?

QED.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

A critical factor in this, IMHO, and maybe the most important factor is how representative this kid Troy's gay experience is of the entire gay community.

From the data points I've collected through life experience: media, literature, a few gay people I've known personally, pop culture, this seems to be representative of a very large aspect of the gay community.

If it is, then it seems very possible that the answer is to treat it like a disease (drug addiction, bulimia, alcoholism, sex addiction, whatever) and help people recover from it, not encourage them in their right to legitimize and mainstream it.

Since you and I are not connected to this system of communities, we cannot get a handle on how accurate it is. We can know it is representative of an active component of that system or network of communities. The difficulty is understanding a system or network of communities which one does not understand organically.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Remember when I said language tells the truth?

QED.

Don't use the term QED like you know what it means, Mike. We know better.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Since you and I are not connected to this system of communities, we cannot get a handle on how accurate it is. We can know it is representative of an active component of that system or network of communities. The difficulty is understanding a system or network of communities which one does not understand organically.

It doesn't matter. We can't even agree on much of Mormon culture, a "system or network of communities" with which we ARE connected. You're talking about an impossible task.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Remember when I said language tells the truth?

QED.

Lame.

You have much bigger fish to fry. I'm on your side.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Since you and I are not connected to this system of communities, we cannot get a handle on how accurate it is. We can know it is representative of an active component of that system or network of communities. The difficulty is understanding a system or network of communities which one does not understand organically.

I understand I'm not qualified to gauge it. I'm throwing it out there as an important criteria. It is knowable. The extent to which this is a major component of the gay experience is important to understand. It should be quantifiable.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Interesting episode of Intervention last night, apparently a rerun from a couple years ago. Troy, a straight A student from Idaho Falls. Went to BYU, discovered he was gay. Left BYU for USC. Got heavy into acting out in the gay lifestyle and in drugs. He had sex with so many guys he had no idea how many it was. Said he had 20 in one night. Would stay on a meth high for week at a time. Never used protection. Also implied his actions were very typical for the gay community. Ended up taking an HIV test in treatment that was positive. Very very sad story. Here's a summary from an Idaho Falls paper.

http://idahofallz.com/2006/01/12/bon...rvention-show/

A few thoughts.

1. He showed the most emotion of the entire show when he said it was really really hard to realize you're gay as a Mormon. I believe we can definitely do better as a church to give comfort and hope to gay members.

2. Butterfly Effect principle. Hard to believe a deep concept can come out of anything related to Ashton Kutcher, but this is deep. I dare say you put any of the brethren in that kid's shoes: father dead at age two, overbearing mom, molested by male and female at young age, raised in Idaho, inclination to dancing, introduction to drugs and gay lifestyle at right/wrong time, and you get this kid. You don't get a member of the 12, that's for sure. You put this kid from Intervention in the upraising one of the 12 had, and maybe you get an apostle. How does this principle relate to our obsession on works/worthiness/church discipline/etc.?

3. I have compassion for gay people. I want to trust them and take them at face value when they speak of gay rights and how they want to be viewed in society. However, there seems to be a real darkness about the gay lifestyle, promiscuous sex, drugs, acting out of childhood pain, dangerous risky sex, multiple meaningless partners. Part of me wants to be tolerant and acknowledge gay lifestyle as legitimate and be happy for them finding joy and happiness however they want to find it. Part of me wants to hold on to the traditional Christian view that homosexuality is an abomination and scourge, which we should try to fight against as if it's a war for the souls of those who struggle with that sin, because it's the LOVING thing to do, because these people clearly are not happy and leaving the lifestyle is a step towards recovery and happiness.

It's sad, but really what can the church do differently without changing doctrine?

I'm still not convinced that people are born gay. I think that they probably develop those tendencies very early on though. I read an article about people who succumb to fear, and lead lives that are limited by their fears have a portion of their brain that actually physically grows bigger. Additionally in this little training class I took they said that children who grow up in a home with domestic violence brains develop differently, and they all exhibit similar issues as they get older. So I wonder if being gay is not something along those same lines. It's just a thought.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Lame.

You have much bigger fish to fry. I'm on your side.

what is lame is when you say "those coloreds have a lot of potential to be educated someday."