What this makes me feel above all else

[SeattleUte]

is a huge disappointment and loss of confidence in human nature.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...my-ranch_N.htm

Hand in hand with the granting of civil liberties must go personal accountability and beyond that personal responsibility, on a mass scale. Our system rests more than anything on civic virtue. The law can't possibly police and enforce the code of conduct required of the vast majority of citizens for our system to work. America is a collosal implicit bargain and act of faith. That's why our system doesn't work in places like Russia.

I don't like raids on cults and mass strippings of parental rights. The abstract notion offends me as a civil libertarian. On the other hand, I'm not sure the orthodox LDS here are worthy of our stystem of trust. They're living on the wrong continent and the wrong millenium. I hate what has happened to them, but I hate them for making a farce out of our system of personal responsiblity. The whole thing breaks down when people choose to live so attrociously in an entire community.

[il Padrino Ute]

You do realize that they are not LDS, but FLDS. They named themselves. They didn't get booted by the Mormons.

Also, though it's not quite spelled the same, the irony of the name of the courthouse is rather delicious.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

is a huge disappointment and loss of confidence in human nature.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...my-ranch_N.htm

Hand in hand with the granting of civil liberties must go personal accountability and beyond that personal responsibility, on a mass scale. Our system rests more than anything on civic virtue. The law can't possibly police and enforce the code of conduct required of the vast majority of citizens for our system to work. America is a collosal implicit bargain and act of faith. That's why our system doesn't work in places like Russia.

I don't like raids on cults and mass strippings of parental rights. The abstract notion offends me as a civil libertarian. On the other hand, I'm not sure the orthodox LDS here are worthy of our stystem of trust. They're living on the wrong continent and the wrong millenium. I hate what has happened to them, but I hate them for making a farce out of our system of personal responsiblity. The whole thing breaks down when people choose to live so attrociously in an entire community.

Bad facts make bad law.

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

You do realize that they are not LDS, but FLDS.

I'm sure the phrase "orthodox lds" was chosen very carefully by our friend SU. That wasn't transparent at all was it? LOL.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by FMCoug

I'm sure the phrase "orthodox lds" was chosen very carefully by our friend SU. That wasn't transparent at all was it? LOL.

That is one of SU's endearing qualities. He loves to call it like he sees it, while trying to separate himself from us.

It won't work SU. We love you anyway and we'll always keep the first pew open for you and your family.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Adam

SeattleUte, check out the following link. After hearing of this abuse of children, if true, they should never let them raise another child again.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bes...ef=videosearch

Waterboarding babies. Charming. Doesn't this also test anyone's estimation of religion unchecked by secularism and civic virtue?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Waterboarding babies. Charming. Doesn't this also test anyone's estimation of religion unchecked by secularism and civic virtue?

It has nothing to do with religion, just screwed up people.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

It has nothing to do with religion, just screwed up people.

The evidence conclusively shows (does it not) that it was simply secular scrutiny--a desire to avoid the dire legal consequences of continued practice of polygamy and increasing pariah status due to the priesthood ban--that forced your LDS Church from a very similar course as the FLDS and closer to the mainstream.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Waterboarding babies. Charming. Doesn't this also test anyone's estimation of religion unchecked by secularism and civic virtue?

Just out of curiosity, how exactly to you "check" religion? What standard do you use? How do you define "civic virtue"? Does secularism actually prescribe any sort of moral standard to evaluate a religion and its practices?

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

Just out of curiosity, how exactly to you "check" religion? What standard do you use? How do you define "civic virtue"? Does secularism actually prescribe any sort of moral standard to evaluate a religion and its practices?

This is a servicable definition of civic virtue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_virtue

With Christianity's long association with our culture it would be narrow minded and unfair to not give Christianity a great deal of credit for our civic virtue. I think the primary beneficial effect has been sort of indirect, however, a trickle down and ferment, if you will. Christianity is in the stew, though Christianity itself is heavily endebted to earlier metaphysics, including Greek philosophy and Judaism, as we've discussed here.

How to "check" religion? See the First Amendment. Secularism is part and parcel of our contemporary civic virtue. There are no formal standards, but our contemporary civic virtue implicitly or explicitly condemns certain traits traditionally endemic to religion such as ethnic hatred if not racism, sexism, superstition, anti-intellectualism, and hostility to science. It is no longer the case that religion is the primary if not sole source of our civic virtue or ethos. Rather, our predominantly secular ethos curbs or checks religion. Thank God.