Do you believe being gay is a choice

[Ace Tomato Co.]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

While pinpointing the exact "cause" of SSA is elusive, I think there is plenty of evidence that it is not a simple choice.

Agreed. As an optimist, I like to think that there aren't many people left who think that SSA is simply a choice.

[SeattleUte]

By the way, whether it's environmental factors or not is neither here nor there to it being a choice. Someone can be rendered a paraplegic by environmental factors, but failure to walk is not a choice. "Environmental factors" vs. genetic is a red herring.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by pelagius

When you define it that way then I am board with you (or at least I agree that the empirical evidence seems most consistent with your statement). The problem is your question was without nuance. Write a clearer question next time. Your experimental design sucks.

Exactly, most of us aren;'t disagreeing with the main point you are making (stripped of its religious and political overtones); we are disagreeing with your poor poll question. Human behavior is just not that simple.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I'll stick up for SU here. Sexual orientation is clearly not a choice for the vast majority of people. Even if there are rare exceptions, that minor caveat does not mean it isn't a fair question.

Yes it does, particualrly becaseu SU is no pure hearted seeker of truth, but is an advocate trying to make a poitn and so constructs his poll for that purpose. In this context it makes the question even more objectionable.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by creekster

Yes it does, particualrly becaseu SU is no pure hearted seeker of truth, but is an advocate trying to make a poitn and so constructs his poll for that purpose. In this context it makes the question even more objectionable.

Amend the poll to say sexual preference. With that caveat, vote.

The points you are making are not material to the crux of this issue.

If the law or a religion forced people to choose homosexuality or heterosexuality and stick with the choice, your points would be worth considering. Given that people who choose to be gay 100% of the time (and are monogomous are to boot) are treated differently from heterosexuals your "nuances" are irrelevant. As I've shown, nuance all you want, the point, which you don't seem to deny, is people don't choose their sexaul preference or absence thereof. Also, again, environmental factors vs. genetics is irrelevant as well.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by creekster

Yes it does, particualrly becaseu SU is no pure hearted seeker of truth, but is an advocate trying to make a poitn and so constructs his poll for that purpose. In this context it makes the question even more objectionable.

I have an agenda but I am a pure hearted seeker of truth. I'm in the right here unless anyone can persuade me that sexual preference is a choice. Because I have a belief and a point to make doesn't disqualify me from being righteous.

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Sorry. It's late I guess. Nice job.

Actually, I think Bayes Rule is very help in this situation. Suppose you think about a person who believes the following:

Let P(A1) = 0.99 (the prior probability homosexual preferences are best understood as a choice. Before he/she read the scientific literature. This probability may come from their upbringing or the hermeneutic that use when they read scripture.)

Let P(A2) = 0.01 (the prior probability that it is not best understood as a choice)

Let P(B|A1) = 0.05 (the probability what we observe the current empirical evidence given A1)


Let P(B|A2) = 0.99 (the probability what we observe the current empirical evidence given A2)

Bayes Rule

P(A1|B) = P(B|A1)*P(A1)/(P(B|A1)*P(A1) + P(B|A2)P(A2))

P(A1|B) = 0.05*0.99/(0.05*0.99 + 0.99*0.01) = 0.83

Nice result! Their prior was so sharp that the posterior probability didn't move much despite the overwhemingly evidence. They still believe there is an 83% chance that it is best understood as a choice. I believe this answers MW earlier question (assuming no math mistakes).

In fact this is the source of much message board conversation in general. People with sharp priors and people with more diffuse priors arguing endless because they come to vastly different conclusion about the implications of the data. Bayes rule is wonderful.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

I think there are few true bisexuals.

People who engage in sexual behavior with both genders are only bisexual if they really have no preference. Most people who play on both sides of the ball generally prefer one side or the other, making them either homosexuals who sometimes exhibit heterosexual behavior or heterosexuals who sometimes exhibit homosexual behavior.

Having grown up in our culture, I'm not sure I (or most on this board) can really address this, but I'm guessing there are plenty of people who, if left to their own preferences, without any social pressures or taboos, would exhibit no real consistent preference with regards to gender, i.e. sex with a partner depends more on the partner than the actual gender or manner of sex.

Just guessing.

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by woot

As I'm sure many of us are aware, sexuality isn't binary. Just about every animal is bisexual to some degree, and I imagine that it would be much more prevalent among humans if not for cultural taboos and whatnot. It therefore makes sense that people do, to at least a small degree, "choose" exclusive heterosexuality or exclusive homosexuality, although I very much doubt it is an active choice in any but perhaps a very small number.

“Just about every animal is bisexual to some degree” is a woefully ignorant statement especially just following the denunciation of the inherent binary nature of sexuality in the animal kingdom.

Animals, other than the human animal are incapable of knowing or understanding that they may be trying to copulate with a male or female of their species at the instinctively appointed mating periods of their existence. Instinct to mate governs their actions, not sexual preference. Humans are the only animals on the planet that engage in sexual activity randomly and for reasons in addition to the perpetuation of the species.

Therefore continual bisexuality and homosexuality in humans is due to a conscious choice on the part of the human, because the desire to mate is not purely instinctive but rather a deliberate act.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I respect Tex for taking the position (setting aside how untenable it is) that sexual preference is a choice. He knows that position is essential for him and others with his views to take unless they are to abandon any pretence of being tolerant.

I guess this is my point as well. Despite the seeming absence of empirical evidence that men choose to be sexually attracted to other men, many social conservatives choose to believe this, because it makes THEM feel better about their beliefs and political actions.