Heath Ledger's sadness

[ute4ever]

MikeWaters the psychologist, what do you think about the reports of Heath's melancholy nature stemming from his depression during the holidays and his separation from his ex and daughter? In your experience, is this outcome more common than one would realize?

[MikeWaters]

Depression, drug use, being alone, male. They are all risk factors for suicide.

However, based on the one article I read, it seems his problems are what in fact led to the breakup.

If he intended to punish his ex-wife for not putting up with his crap, he did a good job.

[woot]

I've heard that he is such a good actor because he "becomes his character" during a shoot. It seems that becoming the Joker, a murderous psychotic, could have been rough on him. I'm not sure what his character was like in the movie he was in the process of filming.

I normally don't give a shit about celebrities dying, but this guy didn't seem to draw unnecessary attention to himself, and was legitimately great at what he did, so I care a little bit.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by woot

I've heard that he is such a good actor because he "becomes his character" during a shoot. It seems that becoming the Joker, a murderous psychotic, could have been rough on him. I'm not sure what his character was like in the movie he was in the process of filming.

I normally don't give a shit about celebrities dying, but this guy didn't seem to draw unnecessary attention to himself, and was legitimately great at what he did, so I care a little bit.

just out of curiosity, and without looking it up, how many suicides do you think there are per year in the USA?

[woot]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

just out of curiosity, and without looking it up, how many suicides do you think there are per year in the USA?

I wouldn't have a clue. How about 10,000?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by woot

I wouldn't have a clue. How about 10,000?

Suicide is a major, preventable public health problem. In 2004, it was the eleventh leading cause of death in the U.S., accounting for 32,439 deaths.1 The overall rate was 10.9 suicide deaths per 100,000 people.1 An estimated eight to 25 attempted suicides occur per every suicide death.2

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publi...evention.shtml

I believe that number is low because in many locales suicide deaths are ruled as accidental in order to please families and for insurance reasons.

Such a case recently happened in my home ward. Videotape of him at a gun range turning the gun around and shooting himself in the eye, this from a man who was career military. Ruled an accident. Could it have been an accident? Perhaps, but I don't think that it is the most likely scenario. I think this happens all the time. I bet it is worst in predominantly Catholic regions of the USA.

And then of course there are the mysterious traffic accidents, the guy who tries to "beat" the train and fails (happened to a family acquaintance), suicide by cop, the guy in Provo who "accidentally" falls off a cliff while climbing in the canyon.

My point is that suicide is a real problem in the USA, but you never hear any substantive discussion of it, no public outcry. There is no more private tragedy than a suicide. No one wants to hear about it.

[ute4ever]

Is it the third leading cause amongst teens, or amongst everyone? I've heard that doctors have a higher-than-average rate.

My guess is over 100,000.

[woot]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publi...evention.shtml

I believe that number is low because in many locales suicide deaths are ruled as accidental in order to please families and for insurance reasons.

Such a case recently happened in my home ward. Videotape of him at a gun range turning the gun around and shooting himself in the eye, this from a man who was career military. Ruled an accident. Could it have been an accident? Perhaps, but I don't think that it is the most likely scenario. I think this happens all the time. I bet it is worst in predominantly Catholic regions of the USA.

And then of course there are the mysterious traffic accidents, the guy who tries to "beat" the train and fails (happened to a family acquaintance), suicide by cop, the guy in Provo who "accidentally" falls off a cliff while climbing in the canyon.

My point is that suicide is a real problem in the USA, but you never hear any substantive discussion of it, no public outcry. There is no more private tragedy than a suicide. No one wants to hear about it.

I agree that it really is a big deal, but I'm not sure what we can really do about it. Our culture has layered various perceived responsibilities and obligations on us, some of which are very difficult or impossible to achieve. Do you find that those who are suicidal are in the same set of people most likely to seek help?

Apparently they haven't ruled out accidental overdose in Ledger's case, but I doubt there's a good way to tell the difference.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by woot

I agree that it really is a big deal, but I'm not sure what we can really do about it. Our culture has layered various perceived responsibilities and obligations on us, some of which are very difficult or impossible to achieve. Do you find that those who are suicidal are in the same set of people most likely to seek help?

Apparently they haven't ruled out accidental overdose in Ledger's case, but I doubt there's a good way to tell the difference.

Imagine if we spent 1% of the money to fight suicide that we have spent in revenging the deaths of just, what, a few thousand people on 9/11. How about 0.1%?

I don't know if Ledger's death had any actual overt suicidal intention, but it seems like he was on a self-destructive path, like a hand-stand on a cliff-face.

Psychiatrists and mental health professionals do not see most of the people who commit suicide. If memory serves me right, people who commit suicide much more often see a primary care doctor with complaints not related to depression or suicidality. Psychiatrists usually deal with the people who want help. Occasionally they see the failed-suicides in the ER and in the hospital. Some of these are gestures, some of these are actual real genuine attempts at suicide. I had a patient that had tried to asphyxiate himself with exhaust from a hose, and had burned himself pretty badly. There was a patient in the local hospital that had attempted to cut his throat with a circular saw. Another swallowed a caustic solution because he had delusions that he was being pursued, and if he spoke, he would be forced to reveal the location of his family. I think he lost his esophagus. I could go on and on. On occasion psychiatrsts have patients that, after a long time in treatment, commit suicide. This is the most usual source for malpractice suits against psychiatrists. God, imagine the heartbreak of having your patient killing himself, then being accused by the family of not doing enough or being the cause of it, then having your life put in turmoil for years over a lawsuit.

Of course we don't see the gunshots to the head. We dont' see the people who jump off overpasses and buildings. They are long gone.

[woot]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Imagine if we spent 1% of the money to fight suicide that we have spent in revenging the deaths of just, what, a few thousand people on 9/11. How about 0.1%?

I don't know if Ledger's death had any actual overt suicidal intention, but it seems like he was on a self-destructive path, like a hand-stand on a cliff-face.

Psychiatrists and mental health professionals do not see most of the people who commit suicide. If memory serves me right, people who commit suicide much more often see a primary care doctor with complaints not related to depression or suicidality. Psychiatrists usually deal with the people who want help. Occasionally they see the failed-suicides in the ER and in the hospital. Some of these are gestures, some of these are actual real genuine attempts at suicide. I had a patient that had tried to asphyxiate himself with exhaust from a hose, and had burned himself pretty badly. There was a patient in the local hospital that had attempted to cut his throat with a circular saw. Another swallowed a caustic solution because he had delusions that he was being pursued, and if he spoke, he would be forced to reveal the location of his family. I think he lost his esophagus. I could go on and on. On occasion psychiatrsts have patients that, after a long time in treatment, commit suicide. This is the most usual source for malpractice suits against psychiatrists. God, imagine the heartbreak of having your patient killing himself, then being accused by the family of not doing enough or being the cause of it, then having your life put in turmoil for years over a lawsuit.

Of course we don't see the gunshots to the head. We dont' see the people who jump off overpasses and buildings. They are long gone.

I wonder if Ledger was actually calling out for help and just overdid it. It seems odd for such a manly man to take pills rather than shooting himself or jumping off a bridge. Maybe that's a false stereotype.

I once visited a "suicide forum" where all the posts were about different ways of committing suicide or bragging about past attempts. It was quite eye opening, as a mini-culture based on suicide seems to be impossible. Apparently they were all very unskilled at killing themselves, though, so the culture was thriving. Obviously most of them weren't trying very hard. I wonder if some in your field could do some good by trying to infiltrate such groups.

Our overreaction to 9/11 has been far worse than the event itself, and I agree that the money we're spending over there could be used far more effectively at home.