The purpose of Blacks and the Priesthood ban

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

That article you posted says nothing, absolutely nothing, that hasn't been said countless times elsewhere.

If you have noticed, attacks on the Church do not really find much success. The Church just keeps growing. So your claims are overblown....as usual. We only have ourselves to blame? What does that mean? Blame for what?

Weren't you one of the people on CB predicting doom when all the MMM stuff was coming to light as a result of that recent movie? So much for that.

I would agree that my stuff on CB is better, because there are more easy targets there. Here, there are really only or two easy targets, so it makes my work tougher. By the way, which IP address are you posting from today?

I would be happy to answer these questions if it were someone else asking.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You are the loud obnoxious guy who walks up and butts in on a conversation, makes a lame joke, and the place kind of gets quiet, waiting for you to shut up or leave.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The two most tawdry elements, arguably, of Mormon history are 1) racism and 2) Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages.

The latter is especially not well known even among members.

In fact, I predict you will have many members announcing that true facts are actually lies. Imagine the confusion that will result, when they realize that they themselves have lied. Will they feel lied to, or deceived?

Such a process is not innoculation. It is full blown disease.

Better get the cure ready.

People who are unaware of the Church's pecadilloes are the rank and file who never question. These same people, when they finally are told by a Church authority that, yes, Joseph had many wives, will simply accept whatever explanation they are given by their Church leader and continue being rank and file. Pretty simple.

If not, then what you are suggesting is that there will be a grassroots revolution from Nephi to Layton when housewives and handymen find out online that Joseph had wives and men in the 1800s were somewhat racist. Yawn.

[Tex]

I listened to Lawrence O' Donnell on Hugh Hewitt's show, and Hewitt took him apart. The man had had one too many drinks. I don't know who this "Ryan Davis" character is, but if he's posting on the Huffington Post, there's not a lot of reason to take him seriously.

Why is this a big deal again?

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The two most tawdry elements, arguably, of Mormon history are 1) racism and 2) Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages.

The latter is especially not well known even among members.

In fact, I predict you will have many members announcing that true facts are actually lies. Imagine the confusion that will result, when they realize that they themselves have lied. Will they feel lied to, or deceived?

Such a process is not innoculation. It is full blown disease.

Better get the cure ready.

If you read Cougarboard much you actually see how members will deal with it.

Some will accept the fact they have been fed some stuff that just really wasn't true. They will take it like they took Paul Dunn's book and move on. Those will be primarily members who don't hang on every word a general authority says and then run out and tell everyone they had better obey.

Then there will be those who will call it all lies and fabrications. They will start saying it is the "end of times" because the evil forces of Satan are gathering against us. They will hunker down and wonder why we can't make Utah a big Colorado City.

Sadly, there will be some that will feel they were deceived and lose their testimony. That is what I see is the problem of throwing out to the world we are more holy, more moral, more bright than everyone else and using BYU as evidence of such. People who don't take all that with a grain of salt can get disillusioned.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I would be happy to answer these questions if it were someone else asking.

You have no idea what you are talking about. You are the loud obnoxious guy who walks up and butts in on a conversation, makes a lame joke, and the place kind of gets quiet, waiting for you to shut up or leave.

Most of my jokes are funny. What's your beef, miguel? out with it.

I admit I pick on you quite a bit. If you would prefer me to stop, I will. You seem pretty rattled this morning.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by BYU71

If you read Cougarboard much you actually see how members will deal with it.

Some will accept the fact they have been fed some stuff that just really wasn't true. They will take it like they took Paul Dunn's book and move on. Those will be primarily members who don't hang on every word a general authority says and then run out and tell everyone they had better obey.

Then there will be those who will call it all lies and fabrications. They will start saying it is the "end of times" because the evil forces of Satan are gathering against us. They will hunker down and wonder why we can't make Utah a big Colorado City.

Sadly, there will be some that will feel they were deceived and lose their testimony. That is what I see is the problem of throwing out to the world we are more holy, more moral, more bright than everyone else and using BYU as evidence of such. People who don't take all that with a grain of salt can get disillusioned.

This is correct. It isnt any different than anything else about the Church that has come out in the past. Life will go on.

All of this "we only have ourselves to blame" stuff is melodrama. It is true, but it is grossly overblown.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

This is correct. It isnt any different than anything else about the Church that has come out in the past. Life will go on.

All of this "we only have ourselves to blame" stuff is melodrama. It is true, but it is grossly overblown.

The question I would ask Mike, whom I also beat up on occasion but he knows I do it out of love and a desire to help him, is who is "we". By that do you mean the church leadership. By we do you mean the leadership at BYU and on Cougarboard.

You have to realize Mike the bulk of the church is not like that. The bulk of the church is not as the perception goes out or is put out by the zealots. I think the church leaders are reasonable men and say reasonable things, it is the zealots that then enhance their words and as most zealots do, get heard the most.

Does anyone really think most kids at BYU are like what is the perception. Probably closer now under the current restrictions, but still not an accurate portrayal.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Tex

I listened to Lawrence O' Donnell on Hugh Hewitt's show, and Hewitt took him apart. The man had had one too many drinks. I don't know who this "Ryan Davis" character is, but if he's posting on the Huffington Post, there's not a lot of reason to take him seriously.

Why is this a big deal again?

It's not the ice floating in the water that you worry about. It's the massive chunk of ice it is attached to that is below water that you can't see.

Opinion leaders who know very little about Mormon doctrine are going to be exposed to little known facts about Mormonism.

It's sort of like Mormonism in the black community. Many blacks will tell you that they have heard that Mormonism isn't friendly to blacks, but they can't tell you exactly why, or what led to that.

Right now we have a situation where it is actually non general authorities who are informing members about the truth regarding these events, with not that much cooperation from general authorities. For example the Kimball biography with some of the juicier elements cut out and only on the CD. Now we know the history of the lifting of the ban was very much more complicated than simply a prayer in the temple.

Transparency cures many ills.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

It's not the ice floating in the water that you worry about. It's the massive chunk of ice it is attached to that is below water that you can't see.

Opinion leaders who know very little about Mormon doctrine are going to be exposed to little known facts about Mormonism.

It's sort of like Mormonism in the black community. Many blacks will tell you that they have heard that Mormonism isn't friendly to blacks, but they can't tell you exactly why, or what led to that.

Right now we have a situation where it is actually non general authorities who are informing members about the truth regarding these events, with not that much cooperation from general authorities. For example the Kimball biography with some of the juicier elements cut out and only on the CD. Now we know the history of the lifting of the ban was very much more complicated than simply a prayer in the temple.

Transparency cures many ills.

Transparency cures some ills, not many. The masses are followers, not leaders. Give them too much information and they get confused and short circuit. Cover ups are human nature and contrary to some beliefs, the church is run by humans who get occasional directives from the almighty.

You and I would both want to convince the masses those directives come often and regularly or you would lose them. My personal belief is God realizes it and is OK with it. I doubt that Moses gave the Israelites much information as to why they were wandering 40 years.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by BYU71

Transparency cures some ills, not many. The masses are followers, not leaders. Give them too much information and they get confused and short circuit. Cover ups are human nature and contrary to some beliefs, the church is run by humans who get occasional directives from the almighty.

You and I would both want to convince the masses those directives come often and regularly or you would lose them. My personal belief is God realizes it and is OK with it. I doubt that Moses gave the Israelites much information as to why they were wandering 40 years.

That's why it took 40 years.