Mosiah 18:13-14

[Sleeping in EQ]

Does anyone know of historical evidence for connecting water baptism to the Spirit decending on someone in a pre-NT time frame?

If someone can connect the "ruah" notion of the Spirit as "Holy Wind" or "Holy Breath of God," I'd be particularly interested.

I'm about to start rummaging through my Jewish materials and am hoping someone can point me in a useful direction...

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Does anyone know of historical evidence for connecting water baptism to the Spirit decending on someone in a pre-NT time frame?

If someone can connect the "ruah" notion of the Spirit as "Holy Wind" or "Holy Breath of God," I'd be particularly interested.

I'm about to start rummaging through my Jewish materials and am hoping someone can point me in a useful direction...

These two articles are not exactly what you're looking for, but they have some really good related stuff, and you might find more clues in the footnotes.


1. Stephen Gero, "The Spirit as a Dove at the Baptism of Jesus" in Novum Testamentum, Vol. 18, Fasc. 1 (Jan., 1976), pp. 17-35.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1560595

Gero, in discussing the dove descending at Jesus' baptism, discounts others who have considered it as "an allusion to the winged psyche or a direct reflection of oriental myths of the begetting or "adoption" of the royal hero by a goddess (Ishtar-Atargatis- Semiramis?) in the guise of a dove." (pg. 17). Sounds like this might be a clue to other Semitic traditions of a Spirit or god descending upon someone (but no water baptism)

2. Ernest Best, "Spirit-Baptism" in Novum Testamentum, Vol. 4, Fasc. 3, (Oct., 1960), pp. 236-243.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1560126

Best discusses some of the problems with the history of baptism by the spirit and baptism by water. (and baptism by fire).

He states "But in so far as we can trace the primitive tradition it did not associate Spirit-baptism with Christian baptism but with Pentecost;" (pg. 239)

Again, no baptism.

Sorry if this ends up being a red herring, but they're interesting articles.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by Solon

These two articles are not exactly what you're looking for, but they have some really good related stuff, and you might find more clues in the footnotes.


1. Stephen Gero, "The Spirit as a Dove at the Baptism of Jesus" in Novum Testamentum, Vol. 18, Fasc. 1 (Jan., 1976), pp. 17-35.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1560595

Gero, in discussing the dove descending at Jesus' baptism, discounts others who have considered it as "an allusion to the winged psyche or a direct reflection of oriental myths of the begetting or "adoption" of the royal hero by a goddess (Ishtar-Atargatis- Semiramis?) in the guise of a dove." (pg. 17). Sounds like this might be a clue to other Semitic traditions of a Spirit or god descending upon someone (but no water baptism)

2. Ernest Best, "Spirit-Baptism" in Novum Testamentum, Vol. 4, Fasc. 3, (Oct., 1960), pp. 236-243.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1560126

Best discusses some of the problems with the history of baptism by the spirit and baptism by water. (and baptism by fire).

He states "But in so far as we can trace the primitive tradition it did not associate Spirit-baptism with Christian baptism but with Pentecost;" (pg. 239)

Again, no baptism.

Sorry if this ends up being a red herring, but they're interesting articles.

Thank you. Those articles are interesting and helpful.

I haven't done much looking yet, but it appears that a decent argument can be made that Mosiah 18:13-14 is anachronistic.

[ute4ever]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

I haven't done much looking yet, but it appears that a decent argument can be made that Mosiah 18:13-14 is anachronistic.

I agree because sometimes circumstances do not permit things to follow God's protocol, therefore once and once only, an alternate method is used.

I look at the creation the same way:
-First, Adam was created "from the dust of the earth." (Interpret that however you'd like).
-Then, Eve was not created the same way; rather she came from Adam's rib.
-After that, all people came through the natural order of mortal conception.

Eve was not created from the dust as Adam, because the rib method was preferred. But Adam could not have used the rib method for obvious reasons. Thus the more miraculous methods occur once and once only to get things on the right track.