Immigration video...unreal.

[The Borg]

http://video.google.com:80/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=roy

Pretty incredible...and pretty depressing.

[BarbaraGordon]

gag. Looks like an informercial.

[The Borg]

Yeah...I guess it could be an "informercial".

To "inform" and to communicate ideas..."informercial".

Much better than an "infomercial" ... I like it. ;-)

[jay santos]

He's using cheap statistic tricks to inflame.

Ask this a-hole what our economy would look like without the immigration we've had the last 20 years.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by jay santos

He's using cheap statistic tricks to inflame.

that's right. I'm not sure that using scaremonger visual aids based on faulty definitions is the way to approach a complex issue.

The graph he uses, where he makes quite the display of unfolding the last bright red segment. If you listen to him, he makes it clear that the third/fourth generation descendants of immigrants still qualify as (red) immigrants. By that logic, if he'd started his chart just 20 or 30 years earlier, several of us here (including me), and/or our spouses would be counted as red on the charts.

His thing about gumballs is a clever visual tool but unrelated to immigration.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

that's right. I'm not sure that using scaremonger visual aids based on faulty definitions is the way to approach a complex issue.

The graph he uses, where he makes quite the display of unfolding the last bright red segment. If you listen to him, he makes it clear that the third/fourth generation descendants of immigrants still qualify as (red) immigrants. By that logic, if he'd started his chart just 20 or 30 years earlier, several of us here (including me), and/or our spouses would be counted as red on the charts.

His thing about gumballs is a clever visual tool but unrelated to immigration.

Exactly. If he started his chart at any point in time in history it would look "shocking". All those damn Italians and Irish would be owning America.

The other cheap trick was cutting off the graph at 200M. If he had it start at 0, the green would dominate and the red would barely catch your attention until the final unveiling (which goes back to the first point).

Any economist in America will tell you how vital immigration and the infusion of low-skilled labor has been to fuel economic expansion.

[The Borg]

You have some points.

However, what I took away from that is not really "cheap statistics" ...but I believe the real point he was trying to make is that immigration is happening at unprecedented rates.

Way back when, and even I would be in the "red" 4 generations ago, times were different. Frontier was available, raw labor was scarce, etc. Not so in our times. Govt. assistance was practically never heard of, taxes were reasonable, social security was not around, welfare...not really an issue as families took care of families...not so much these days.

Back then, immigrants were 'absorbed' into our country and culture. Today, immigrants hold on to their culture, insisting ours changes to meet theirs. They don't want to learn English, wanting us to learn Spanish or some other language to meet their needs. It is very divisive and totally different from the times I think you are referring to.

I think that is the point trying to be made.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by The Borg

You have some points.

However, what I took away from that is not really "cheap tricks" ...but I believe the real point he was trying to make is that immigration is happening at unprecendented rates.

Not true, Mr. Borg-man.

One of the ways he exaggerates his claims is by using raw numbers (one million, etc.) instead of per capita numbers. Even per capita, we're at the highest point since the forties, but it's not unprecedented, and not near as dramatic as the raw numbers would have you believe.

Back then, immigrants were 'absorbed' into our country and culture. Today, immigrants hold on to their culture, insisting ours changes to meet theirs. They don't want to learn English, wanting us to learn Spanish or some other language to meet their needs. It is very divisive and totally different from the times I think you are referring to.

I was at an immigrant family's birthday party Friday. Not a single one of the adults spoke English. At all. But all of the kids interacted in English, even though they're clearly from Spanish-speaking homes and could just as easily conduct their playtime in Spanish. I think the argument that there's no assimilation is exaggerated.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Not true, Mr. Borg-man.

One of the ways he exaggerates his claims is by using raw numbers (one million, etc.) instead of per capita numbers. Even per capita, we're at the highest point since the forties, but it's not unprecedented, and not near as dramatic as the raw numbers would have you believe.

I was at an immigrant family's birthday party Friday. Not a single one of the adults spoke English. At all. But all of the kids interacted in English, even though they're clearly from Spanish-speaking homes and could just as easily conduct their playtime in Spanish. I think the argument that there's no assimilation is exaggerated.

And take it back since before the 40's. There's a reason he stopped his chart there.

I'll bet you had the same fear and talk about how "that was the past, it's different now" at every period in our history, and we've done just fine.

This anti-immigration stuff is just cleverly disguised racism.

[The Borg]

[quote=BarbaraGordon;85895]Not true, Mr. Borg-man.

...we're at the highest point since the forties, but it's not unprecedented..

...Not a single one of the adults spoke English. At all. But all of the kids interacted in English, even though they're clearly from Spanish-speaking homes and could just as easily conduct their playtime in Spanish.quote]

Not unprecedented? I've not done my homework...but when were we at a higher rate?

I wonder too, if he isn't including all of the unaccounted "illegal" aliens in our country.

Non speaking adults...there are certainly cases to be made for both situations. I certainly am not painting with such a broad brush as to say "all" don't want to assimilate our culture. I have concerns though, I may be mistaken, but in California, is there some bill being suggested to make "English" the official language of California? When that starts happening, it's a bad sign.