cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board  

Go Back   cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board > non-Sports > Current Events

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-30-2006, 03:28 PM   #31
Jeff Lebowski
Charon
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In the heart of darkness (Provo)
Posts: 9,564
Jeff Lebowski is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
It's fine to disagree, as I'm certain I make mistakes in most matters. But disagreement here is without logic and is based solely on emotion.
Nice. How convenient for you.

My lack of discussion has nothing to do with "all emotion - no logic". It's just that we seem to have had this discussion so many times that I see no point in debating it further.
__________________
"... the arc of the universe is long but it bends toward justice." Martin Luther King, Jr.
Jeff Lebowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 03:48 PM   #32
Archaea
Assistant to the Regional Manager
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Orgasmatron
Posts: 24,338
Archaea is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
Nice. How convenient for you.

My lack of discussion has nothing to do with "all emotion - no logic". It's just that we seem to have had this discussion so many times that I see no point in debating it further.
To an extent, but your side has basically stated, "Gee, how can we let all those people suffer." The debate from your side has always been emotion based. And arguments made for public consumption may be appealling but they still lack logic. Case in point, you delivered a very logical, scientific approach to debunking the conspiracy theorists who use emotion and illogic in discussing the demolition of the WTC. However, nobody from your side ever comes close to that level of detail for foreign policy and nobody has any level of understanding of nation-building, intervention techniques, anthropology and sociology. Now I'm not arguing I have all the answers, because I don't but those matters are of some interest to me, as they involve how I examine certain investment opportunities. Yet, we see hoya, an otherwise intelligent guy, going off emotional, without resorting to any form of intellectual analysis on this one. He's simply wrong.

It has never stated a proposition, based on experience that shows the principles which one supports have EVER been successful or even can be successful.

As Utah Dan stated, it is ironic for those who desire intervention in Sudan or in other places in Africa, where the US has no economic or strategic interests, also oppose intervention where the US has economic or strategic interests.
__________________
Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

Last edited by Archaea; 11-30-2006 at 03:52 PM.
Archaea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 04:40 PM   #33
UtahDan
Senior Member
 
UtahDan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Bluth Home
Posts: 3,877
UtahDan is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
As Utah Dan stated, it is ironic for those who desire intervention in Sudan or in other places in Africa, where the US has no economic or strategic interests, also oppose intervention where the US has economic or strategic interests.
Its almost worse than that because the argument, at least at one point, was that it is wrong for us to do things for selfish reasons. I would not agree that there is not place for "dogooders" though. I think that there are many things that we can and should do because they are morally right, but I would qualify that by saying that in most cases these acts need to align with our other interests. If not, you invite other nations to freeride on your generosity. If you listen to Europeans, you would think that all of the worlds problems result from "America" either doing too much or not enough, in other words, they don't think of their nation as part of the problem or the soultion. What is morally superior Europe doing about Darfur? Who has offered to commit troops? And why not? Not in their self interest either. Same reason they have not gotten involved in Iraq.

Europe talks a good game about international community and international law and collective action and in the end acts in their own slef interest. And they should do. Our idealists on this continent, however, should not be decieved that when we do what is best for us that we are not in step with more enlightened westen societies. These societies, in terms of committing money and resourses, look indifferent to Africa compared to us. And yet we are the villain aroud the world. This just underscores my point that where we "do good" we should do it realizing that we will get nothing in return, no support from anyone else and will in the end be blamed for any part of it that goes wrong. This 180 degrees from what some thing is right, that is, that we only should act when we have no self interest.
__________________
The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go. -Galileo
UtahDan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 04:43 PM   #34
Cali Coug
Senior Member
 
Cali Coug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,996
Cali Coug has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyBalboa View Post
Of course you don't see how it's pertinent. Your arrogance precludes you from doing so not with this, but any debate.
Yet another fine explanation.
Cali Coug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 04:46 PM   #35
RockyBalboa
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Salt Lake City
Posts: 7,297
RockyBalboa is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to RockyBalboa
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoyacoug View Post
Yet another fine explanation.
Isn't it though? Funny thing is you're the only one who doesn't get it.

By the way...take another gander at Elder Nelson's comments on the issue.....it would do you a world of good. You've a lot to learn.
__________________
Masquerading as Cougarguards very own genius dumbass since 05'.

Last edited by RockyBalboa; 11-30-2006 at 04:50 PM.
RockyBalboa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 04:50 PM   #36
Detroitdad
Resident Jackass
 
Detroitdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Roswell, New Mexico
Posts: 1,846
Detroitdad is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
What is interesting to me is that the same people to whom it seems obvious that we can't be getting into adventures around the world where we can't control the outcome (and additionally think it imperialist, immoral, jingositic and arrogant for us to do so) also want very much for us to cure all of Africa's ills from aids to the genocide occurring in Darfur. Darfur that is in the middle of a sectarian (or close enough) civil war (or close enough) that will ultimately make additional bloodshed unvoidable because they just don't want to live together peacefully or share power. Darfur that is run not by the Sudanese government, but by the Janjaweed (a militia). Darfur that poses no threat to us and has never attacked us. Starting to sound familiar?

I think that as between those who hypocritcally say we have no business in Iraq but should intercede in the Sudan and those who cycnically say that we have interests at stake in Iraq and nothing at stake in the Sudan I probably give more credit to the latter because at least there is a cogent thought process behind it.
Where did Osama bin Laden build up his organization before he went to Afghanistan? Sudan. Why? Because a broken state acts as a haven for illegal activity, drug running, disease, etc. Look at Afghanistan, Chechnya, southern Phillipines, etc. for more examples of how fractured states serve to eventually become our interest. So, while we cannot say definitively that Darfur is in our immediate interest, we can predict that if it is left untended that it will become a part of our interest, with a fairly high degree of certainty.

Similarly, the AIDS crisis in Africa presents all sorts of long term problems, including the spread of the disease into China, the adaptation of the disease to becoming drug resistant, etc. Economic and security interests are connected to health concerns in a more globally minded world.
Detroitdad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 04:56 PM   #37
Cali Coug
Senior Member
 
Cali Coug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,996
Cali Coug has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
What I don't understand is how you equate current AIDS policies with homophobia.

Current policy funds AIDS research exponentially greater than its US impact. In fact, it receives preferential treatment, far greater than its impact would predict.

The policy is more one of Africaphobia. Because Africa is not economically beneficial to the US, we do not look to change matters there. And that is how a government should act. Individual action, including charity, should not convey transitively those attributes to government, as government poses a different function. If individuals wish to render charitable acts, that makes sense but religious injunctions are rarely instructions in good government. They are instructions in personal character.

Whenever a government tries to engage in charitable acts for a long term policy, without examination geopolitically, then we are not wise with our limited resources. All government acts of long term duration, should have ties to them.

Africa, as a resource, is NOT geopolitically important to the US interests, outside of perhaps Egypt, maybe South Africa, Namibia and Zimbabwe. If some significant resources are discovered for exploitation, then we could reexamine.
When did I say I do equate AIDS policy with homophobia? I said homophobia affects AIDS policy (it is "much of the problem"), not that it solely directs AIDS policy.

I tend to think one of the reasons we don't do more in Africa with AIDS is because we view the disease through US glasses, thinking of it as a "gay disease" (though that perception is changing, largely due to Magic Johnson- who has also affected the perception that AIDS is deadly through his remission; does Magic Johnson just have a magic johnson?). Many Americans feel that those with AIDS deserve it, so many, including many on this board like Il Padrino, advocate spending nothing on AIDS research through tax dollars. That DOES impact AIDS policy, and I think it is tied to a degree to homophobia.

US disinterest in Africa is also a problem.
Cali Coug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 04:58 PM   #38
Jeff Lebowski
Charon
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In the heart of darkness (Provo)
Posts: 9,564
Jeff Lebowski is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
Its almost worse than that because the argument, at least at one point, was that it is wrong for us to do things for selfish reasons. I would not agree that there is not place for "dogooders" though. I think that there are many things that we can and should do because they are morally right, but I would qualify that by saying that in most cases these acts need to align with our other interests. If not, you invite other nations to freeride on your generosity. If you listen to Europeans, you would think that all of the worlds problems result from "America" either doing too much or not enough, in other words, they don't think of their nation as part of the problem or the soultion. What is morally superior Europe doing about Darfur? Who has offered to commit troops? And why not? Not in their self interest either. Same reason they have not gotten involved in Iraq.

Europe talks a good game about international community and international law and collective action and in the end acts in their own slef interest. And they should do. Our idealists on this continent, however, should not be decieved that when we do what is best for us that we are not in step with more enlightened westen societies. These societies, in terms of committing money and resourses, look indifferent to Africa compared to us. And yet we are the villain aroud the world. This just underscores my point that where we "do good" we should do it realizing that we will get nothing in return, no support from anyone else and will in the end be blamed for any part of it that goes wrong. This 180 degrees from what some thing is right, that is, that we only should act when we have no self interest.
LOL. Hey UtahDan and Archaea: thanks for so carefully articulating "my position" for me when I stated I have no desire to do so. Straw men can be a lot of fun, eh?
__________________
"... the arc of the universe is long but it bends toward justice." Martin Luther King, Jr.
Jeff Lebowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 05:00 PM   #39
Cali Coug
Senior Member
 
Cali Coug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,996
Cali Coug has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyBalboa View Post
Isn't it though? Funny thing is you're the only one who doesn't get it.

By the way...take another gander at Elder Nelson's comments on the issue.....it would do you a world of good. You've a lot to learn.
I haven't ever disagreed with his comments, to the extent I understand them to mean that immorality is fueling much of the AIDS epidemic. There is no question that AIDS would be slowed by moral behavior or through protections when engaging in immoral behavior. Again, when have I said otherwise?

But to view AIDS as an issue of immorality v. morality is overly simplistic. The MAJORITY of AIDS victims live in a continent where our version of "morality" is not accepted, nor largely applied. This goes back to my post on Africa and AIDS.
Cali Coug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2006, 05:02 PM   #40
Cali Coug
Senior Member
 
Cali Coug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,996
Cali Coug has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyBalboa View Post
Isn't it though? Funny thing is you're the only one who doesn't get it.

By the way...take another gander at Elder Nelson's comments on the issue.....it would do you a world of good. You've a lot to learn.
I'm the only one? I was unaware that you were speaking on behalf of all other people.
Cali Coug is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.