I am surprised at how out of hand the Romney-church thing has become

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

I don't think what happened is as bad as what the Globe says (which is why I linked to the DNews article which explains some of the discrepancies).

BUT, it appears uncontested that two BYU deans did write people from their school account urging them to vote for Romney. Read my first post for my thoughts on that issue.

I agree that it was a boneheaded thing what the BYU professors did. All they had to do was send that e-mail from their home computer and not use their title as professors and everything would have been ok.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

Nope, but I'm sure I can understand. I'd say that the difference between our experiences would be that you were still of the same religious affiliation as the vast majority of the studentbody and faculty at BYU. At Marist, there were 11 members of the church when I was there. Most folks there were either Catholic in tradition only (meaning if they went to church it was at Easter and Christmas) or agnostic. There really was no common ground for me with anybody there.

A question for you: were you ever accused of being an anti-semite for your politcial beliefs? (Or in you case were you ever accused of not being worth to hold the priesthood?) I was. Several times, including by faculty.

Marist is one of the most hardcore liberal schools around. I think I can safely say that the only graduates from Marist that are not liberals are myself and Bill O'Reilly.

I did get a good ecucation there, but if I hadn't been offered a scholarship to play baseball, I never would have set foot on that campus.

You wouldn't believe the things conservative Mormons have said to me for stating opinions on topics that I thought were fairly mainstream. Yes, I have had my right to hold the priesthood questioned (and have on this board multiple times as well). I have had people ask me how I can hold a temple recommend. I have had people suggest that Democrats cannot live with God after this life (and are deeply offended when I tell them James Faust was a strong Democrat and his family still is- he has toned down political activities for obvious reasons). I attended one of the most liberal schools in the nation for law school. I was a bit of a fish out of water there too, since 90% of Gtown attendees were far more liberal than I was. I also saw people attack those more conservative than I was. I will say, however, that in my experience, people at Gtown tended to be FAR more tolerant than most conservative Mormons. At Gtown, there was a general feeling of "let people hold whatever beliefs they have." In fact, in some ways that was annoying because it led to a high degree of moral equivalence, but it led to much better debate and dialogue than I ever saw at BYU (which led to far more learning than I ever saw at BYU).

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

You wouldn't believe the things conservative Mormons have said to me for stating opinions on topics that I thought were fairly mainstream. Yes, I have had my right to hold the priesthood questioned (and have on this board multiple times as well). I have had people ask me how I can hold a temple recommend. I have had people suggest that Democrats cannot live with God after this life (and are deeply offended when I tell them James Faust was a strong Democrat and his family still is- he has toned down political activities for obvious reasons). I attended one of the most liberal schools in the nation for law school. I was a bit of a fish out of water there too, since 90% of Gtown attendees were far more liberal than I was. I also saw people attack those more conservative than I was. I will say, however, that in my experience, people at Gtown tended to be FAR more tolerant than most conservative Mormons. At Gtown, there was a general feeling of "let people hold whatever beliefs they have." In fact, in some ways that was annoying because it led to a high degree of moral equivalence, but it led to much better debate and dialogue than I ever saw at BYU (which led to far more learning than I ever saw at BYU).

I feel your pain, brother.

We political casualties need to stick together, eh?

Even if you are wrong.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by hoyacoug

In fact, in some ways that was annoying because it led to a high degree of moral equivalence, but it led to much better debate and dialogue than I ever saw at BYU (which led to far more learning than I ever saw at BYU).

But if the learning is in an environment saturated with an attitude of moral equivalence to what purpose is the learning? (btw, this is not a rhetiorical question, although it could be.) Within my experience better debate and dialogue and even learning (if by learning you mean acquisition of knowledge about positions revealed through more debate and dialogue) does not necesarily lead to a more significant achivement for the individuals involved. DO you think this is sometimes true?

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by creekster

But if the learning is in an environment saturated with an attitude of moral equivalence to what purpose is the learning? (btw, this is not a rhetiorical question, although it could be.) Within my experience better debate and dialogue and even learning (if by learning you mean acquisition of knowledge about positions revealed through more debate and dialogue) does not necesarily lead to a more significant achivement for the individuals involved. DO you think this is sometimes true?

Sure, it could be. I can't intelligently speak to how well others learn in that environment. While many take the position of moral equivalence, what is important, in the end, is what I took from the debates and dialogues. I had my beliefs challenged in ways I had never even considered before. As a result, I learned far more than I ever would have surrounded by people that agreed with me.

As far as "leading to more significant achievement," you will have to expand on what you mean. If you mean learning more doesn't necessarily mean you will achieve more in the world, then of course I agree. I don't even think it is disputable. I don't know why that is particularly important to focus on, though. Education and learning are among the very few things we take with us to the next life. We can't take along our "achievements."