LDS church announcing downtown plans tonight! - Page 4 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

SeattleUte · 10-04-2006, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

the church has a lot more money than you think. As a financial clerk of a small poorer ward I was very surprised how much money in tithing the church gets. Even when I was a financial clerk for student singles ward at the U the tithing was around 4k a week. If we say that is the average for all the wards in the world (~30,000) we get about 6.4 billion a year in tithing.

I have no opinion on how rich the church is. I don't know how anybody not in the highest levels of leadership could. I assume, as Archea said, it must adhere to sound financial decision-making.

But gross revenues are meaningless. Ford MC's revenues are a great deal higher than 6.4 billion and it's going broke. As Archea noted, the great majority of the Church's assets are not income producing. I also assume that until now the Church's investments have been pretty risk-free and stodgy--low reliable return. This I would put more in the high flying category.

UteStar · 10-04-2006, 05:44 PM

I would argue with you Seattle on your assumption that the majority of the church's land is not revenue producing. The church owns a whole lot more land than the land that is being used for temples and churches.

In terms of investment returns...I also understand that the church is not risky with its investments but is not 'risk-free' with it either. The church does pretty well with many of its investments.

Archaea · 10-04-2006, 05:51 PM

Without disclosing too much, a relative of mine was intimately familiar from one of these, I insert them for ambiguity, (a) the investment arm, or (b) the retirement arm, and the relative stated, that this relative, including one this relative's co-workers, strongly disagreed with the investment angles taken. Now whether those have proven good or bad I have not followed up on.

Point is there are a myriad of investment tacks a person can take, and many of them are bad. Investments are also difficult, even for the very informed, so any risky investment a la a real estate venture, concerns me.

Mormon Red Death · 10-04-2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I have no opinion on how rich the church is. I don't know how anybody not in the highest levels of leadership could. I assume, as Archea said, it must adhere to sound financial decision-making.

But gross revenues are meaningless. Ford MC's revenues are a great deal higher than 6.4 billion and it's going broke. As Archea noted, the great majority of the Church's assets are not income producing. I also assume that until now the Church's investments have been pretty risk-free and stodgy--low reliable return. This I would put more in the high flying category.

What are their costs? the ward budget? building new buildings? They can't be that much

jay santos · 10-04-2006, 06:01 PM

The church brings in $6B a year in tithing. This is more than they need to sustain operations. They have a surplus every year. How much? That's not made public and there's a lot of fuzzy accounting that makes it difficult to ascertain. Let's assume it's 10%. Over ten years that amounts to $6B in just the base. After a period of decades of this kind of surplus and invested wisely and conservatively like the church does, you end up with a ton of assets.

The church has more money than they know what to do with. What to do with this surplus is becoming almost as big of a problem as it would be trying to figure out how to stay afloat in hard times. Dropping some money on these kinds of projects is not that big of a deal for the church.

They're dropping $2B. I'm sure they'll put up some of that cash upfront. I'm sure part of the $2B will never be spent--costs they'll never incur such as cost of the land. I imagine they will have some of it financed. Developers or large tenants will front some of it.

Out of a $2B, the church could afford to lose all of it. But they won't. They'll make money off it. And if they do lose money it will be to the tune of $200M or so max, which is pocket change for the church. $200M is 3% of church's tithing intake and who knows what % of business operations. Spread out over a few years, that loss is pocket change.

The church can always say tithing money is not spent on something because they make enough money off business operations or receive other donations, that they can move the money around to make it so that it's not technically funded by tithing. But that shouldn't mean anything to anybody.

The church has access to X dollars. Church wants to use X dollars to conduct the business of the kingdom of God, which includes building temples, building City Creek development, and running BYU football. They'll use tithing to cover the tithing-appropriate ventures, and business operations money and other donations to cover the rest. If City Creek and BYU football don't turn a profit it cuts into how much good the church can do with tithing. Don't fool yourself to believe the fact that BYU football or City Creek is not using "tithing" money that it actually means anything.

If you think this is a financial risk for the church, you just don't understand the church's finances and how a development like this is operated.

fuegote · 10-04-2006, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Whatever, it's your tithing dollars at work.

If it is tithing dollars at work (and I believe it isn't)...

Tithing going to the Y vs Tithing helping downtown...

i'm okay with that.

TheSizzle36 · 10-04-2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuegote

If it is tithing dollars at work (and I believe it isn't)...

Tithing going to the Y vs Tithing helping downtown...

i'm okay with that.

Right, IMO, even if it IS tithing dollars at work to fix this, I do not feel that this is a terrible decision.

Giving back to the community, especially the community that houses the majority of the members, as well as improves the area around the central hub of the church is not a bad thing, IMO.

SeattleUte · 10-04-2006, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay santos

The church brings in $6B a year in tithing.

I wouldn't call MRD's estimate scientific.

Mormon Red Death · 10-04-2006, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I wouldn't call MRD's estimate scientific.

neither would i

Archaea · 10-04-2006, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuegote

If it is tithing dollars at work (and I believe it isn't)...

Tithing going to the Y vs Tithing helping downtown...

i'm okay with that.

See all that money should go to BYU and BYU football. Just think what sort of nonMormon coaching greats we could hire for that sort of money.

10-04-2006, 05:51 PM	#33
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	Without disclosing too much, a relative of mine was intimately familiar from one of these, I insert them for ambiguity, (a) the investment arm, or (b) the retirement arm, and the relative stated, that this relative, including one this relative's co-workers, strongly disagreed with the investment angles taken. Now whether those have proven good or bad I have not followed up on. Point is there are a myriad of investment tacks a person can take, and many of them are bad. Investments are also difficult, even for the very informed, so any risky investment a la a real estate venture, concerns me. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

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10-04-2006, 05:44 PM	#32
UteStar Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,817	I would argue with you Seattle on your assumption that the majority of the church's land is not revenue producing. The church owns a whole lot more land than the land that is being used for temples and churches. In terms of investment returns...I also understand that the church is not risky with its investments but is not 'risk-free' with it either. The church does pretty well with many of its investments.

10-04-2006, 06:01 PM	#35
jay santos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,177	The church brings in $6B a year in tithing. This is more than they need to sustain operations. They have a surplus every year. How much? That's not made public and there's a lot of fuzzy accounting that makes it difficult to ascertain. Let's assume it's 10%. Over ten years that amounts to $6B in just the base. After a period of decades of this kind of surplus and invested wisely and conservatively like the church does, you end up with a ton of assets. The church has more money than they know what to do with. What to do with this surplus is becoming almost as big of a problem as it would be trying to figure out how to stay afloat in hard times. Dropping some money on these kinds of projects is not that big of a deal for the church. They're dropping $2B. I'm sure they'll put up some of that cash upfront. I'm sure part of the $2B will never be spent--costs they'll never incur such as cost of the land. I imagine they will have some of it financed. Developers or large tenants will front some of it. Out of a $2B, the church could afford to lose all of it. But they won't. They'll make money off it. And if they do lose money it will be to the tune of $200M or so max, which is pocket change for the church. $200M is 3% of church's tithing intake and who knows what % of business operations. Spread out over a few years, that loss is pocket change. The church can always say tithing money is not spent on something because they make enough money off business operations or receive other donations, that they can move the money around to make it so that it's not technically funded by tithing. But that shouldn't mean anything to anybody. The church has access to X dollars. Church wants to use X dollars to conduct the business of the kingdom of God, which includes building temples, building City Creek development, and running BYU football. They'll use tithing to cover the tithing-appropriate ventures, and business operations money and other donations to cover the rest. If City Creek and BYU football don't turn a profit it cuts into how much good the church can do with tithing. Don't fool yourself to believe the fact that BYU football or City Creek is not using "tithing" money that it actually means anything. If you think this is a financial risk for the church, you just don't understand the church's finances and how a development like this is operated.