Free Expression? Not in Holland.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Right, but freedom of speech is constitutionally protected in the Netherlands, too. This is a matter of interpretation.

It surprised me that a country noted for laissez faire in about everything took such a restrictive interpretation, although the rise of the Muslim demographic had an impact no doubt.

[MikeWaters]

I wonder if Mormons had more power, would they ban openly mocking the temple ceremony(ies)?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I wonder if Mormons had more power, would they ban openly mocking the temple ceremony(ies)?

Probably, but I'm glad we don't.

I'd prefer allowing desecration as opposed repressed speech.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Probably, but I'm glad we don't.

I'd prefer allowing desecration as opposed repressed speech.

I think this is how Muslims feel. That mocking the temple ceremony should be illegal. Except for them, it's not a 'temple ceremony.' It's other stuff.

If God is the most important thing in the world, what could be more important than upholding, through law, basic respect for God?

Freedom of speech is more important than God?

The Westerner says 'yes, if you want to put it like that.'

However even in America we have the same fundamentalist impulses, i.e. putting people in jail for burning the flag.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I think this is how Muslims feel. That mocking the temple ceremony should be illegal. Except for them, it's not a 'temple ceremony.' It's other stuff.

If God is the most important thing in the world, what could be more important than upholding, through law, basic respect for God?

Freedom of speech is more important than God?

The Westerner says 'yes, if you want to put it like that.'

However even in America we have the same fundamentalist impulses, i.e. putting people in jail for burning the flag.

That is the impulse, which you're capable of expressing. But thanks to that impulse, ignorance, repression and a general lack of understanding permeate Islamic society.

We don't talk about things and so many of those things remain a mystery of ignorance.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Archaea

That is the impulse, which you're capable of expressing. But thanks to that impulse, ignorance, repression and a general lack of understanding permeate Islamic society.

Versus the enlightened Western democratic liberal impulses of, say, the Israelis, that allow them to prevent charitable relief from reaching the prison camp they just bombed.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Versus the enlightened Western democratic liberal impulses of, say, the Israelis, that allow them to prevent charitable relief from reaching the prison camp they just bombed.

I believe free expression is also repressed in Israel. You don't have the freedom to proselyte, and many things can't be said there.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Archaea

It surprised me that a country noted for laissez faire in about everything took such a restrictive interpretation, although the rise of the Muslim demographic had an impact no doubt.

Not "had an impact." It's the driving force. The tension between these two populations is probably the foremost issue facing the nation.

And the fact that the nation is so generally and historically laissez faire is the problem, not the non seq. It's kind of like communism -- it seemed like a good idea in theory, but when you have to sort out the details in practice it all starts to break down.

Think about it. You've got a nation's ideals rooted in secularism and mutual acceptance, tolerance, and respect for all peoples. Very non-interventionist. Well, this only works so long as everybody plays along. What happens when you have a mass influx of a group whose ideology encourages the very opposite of these ideals? What happens when you have a significant and increasing population whose attitude is "convert or be killed, curse'd infidels!!"? How much longer can the rest of the population continue its let-them-be way of life, knowing that their neighbors are reproducing in droves and teaching their offspring the opposite? How much longer can the government watch the intercultural tensions increase?

It's like the progressive free-thinking mother who scoffs at discipline and believes young children should be allowed to express themselves by acting out their impulses. Well, how far is she going to take this? So long as brother and sister play nicely? Does she intervene once the toddlers start threatening to hurt each other? Hurling toys? Or does she wait until brother yanks sister's hair, knocks her to the floor and leaves bite marks in her arm before explaining to sister that it's all in the name of personal freedom? Did she, as the authority, not have an obligation to prevent the violence?

It's a difficult position for a nation. It is much like the dichotomy Obama referred to. What happens when a country has to choose between long term security and its ideals? This is the struggle the Netherlands is facing. And there are no easy answers. Which precedent do we wish to set? That it is no longer permissible to speak freely? Or that for the sake of freedom and tolerance the government will sit idly by while incendiary language results in widespread civil disturbance?

It's a fascinating story unfolding, but one that I'm rather relieved I'm reading about instead of living out.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Not "had an impact." It's the driving force. The tension between these two populations is probably the foremost issue facing the nation.

What western European nation isn't? Britain's got it. France has got it. Germany. Spain. This culture clash is a huge elephant over there.

Banning racist, misogynistic Snow White stories is a good start, however.

[The Borg]

Well said BG.

In reading your reply...I couldn't help but think of the early days of the founding of the Church, and their mass influx to Missouri. Same kind of deal...to the existing people living there. The early Saints became a real threat to the settlers of Missouri.

So, it is interesting to see what is happening there....it is a foreshadowing of what is to come in other countries, in my opinion.

Do you stand by your principles and watch your country go down all in the name of ensuring certain freedoms, even if those very freedoms you're protecting could produce the demise of your very country. Or, do you somehow try and preserve your founding ideals that made your country.

Wow....scary to think about.