Civil liberties we are losing?

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by NorCal Cat

Who is the habeas corpus issue affecting besides those being held at Gitmo?

I don't know. But the bottom line is there is a law on the books that says the governemnt can choose to take it away form anyone they want to by simply declaring them an "enemy combatant". That' is too much unchecked power IMO.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Instead of swiping at me, address the argument. Are civil liberties not about making government prove its case and about protecting the innocent?

What is fallacious about that argument?

Yes, civil liberties are about making government prove its case and about protecting the innocent. Even me and my "Javascript" (which is not what I do, by the way) can see that.

The question is whether or not the Patriot Act appreciably abridges those rights.

Originally Posted by FMCoug

I think very few people who are concerned about the Patriot Act and the resulting loss in civil liberties are referring to the detainees in Gitmo. What concerns me is how the Patriot Act impacts American citizens, stateside, in their own homes.

As to NorCal's original question, I guess the whole habeas corpus thing was really just a minor benefit, not a civil libert. That's just one example.

I think Gitmo comes up within about 14 seconds of any discussion on civil liberties, so I have to disagree with you there.

As to the Patriot Act, I'd like to hear of some real violations--and not just individual cases. I want to hear about broad denial of civil liberties to statistically significant numbers of Americans, such that we can say "our" rights have been curtailed.

Lastly, so far as I know, no American citizen has been denied habeas corpus. Do you know otherwise?

Originally Posted by FMCoug

I don't know. But the bottom line is there is a law on the books that says the governemnt can choose to take it away form anyone they want to by simply declaring them an "enemy combatant". That' is too much unchecked power IMO.

I don't think it's that easy.

I'll add, parenthetically, that the Patriot Act was passed by a majority of Congressmen, twice. And despite the hot air you hear from the Left, I'd bet it would still pass (though in modified form) a Democrat Congress.

[NorCal Cat]

Originally Posted by FMCoug

I don't know. But the bottom line is there is a law on the books that says the governemnt can choose to take it away form anyone they want to by simply declaring them an "enemy combatant". That' is too much unchecked power IMO.

Anyone can be declared an "enemy combatant" for any reason? There are no requirements to be met?

[BigFatMeanie]

Originally Posted by Archaea

The real world is much different that coding javascript.

Arch, as a software developer (if indeed Tex is a programmer which I don't know for certain) I've got to call you out on this - why bring a man's occupation into it? Being a software developer is an honorable and profitable profession that has done much good for mankind. You, sir, are a lawyer - one of the most reviled and hated professions in the country. I'll try not to take jabs at the fact that you are a lawyer but I'll also say that you're definitely living in a glass house when it comes to occupation.

Now, if you're bagging on Javascript because it's not considered something that real developers do, then I would say take a look at what Google does with google maps, gmail, etc. - it's all AJAX development which is all about Javascript.

P.S. - I don't regularly program in Javascript myself. I'm a C/C++/C# man.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie

Arch, as a software developer (if indeed Tex is a programmer which I don't know for certain) I've got to call you out on this - why bring a man's occupation into it? Being a software developer is an honorable and profitable profession that has done much good for mankind. You, sir, are a lawyer - one of the most reviled and hated professions in the country. I'll try not to take jabs at the fact that you are a lawyer but I'll also say that you're definitely living in a glass house when it comes to occupation.

Now, if you're bagging on Javascript because it's not considered something that real developers do, then I would say take a look at what Google does with google maps, gmail, etc. - it's all AJAX development which is all about Javascript.

P.S. - I don't regularly program in Javascript myself. I'm a C/C++/C# man.

Actually, that makes me respect Tex a bit more. Programming takes a lot of smarts.

[FMCoug]

Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie

Arch, as a software developer (if indeed Tex is a programmer which I don't know for certain) I've got to call you out on this - why bring a man's occupation into it? Being a software developer is an honorable and profitable profession that has done much good for mankind. You, sir, are a lawyer - one of the most reviled and hated professions in the country. I'll try not to take jabs at the fact that you are a lawyer but I'll also say that you're definitely living in a glass house when it comes to occupation.

Now, if you're bagging on Javascript because it's not considered something that real developers do, then I would say take a look at what Google does with google maps, gmail, etc. - it's all AJAX development which is all about Javascript.

P.S. - I don't regularly program in Javascript myself. I'm a C/C++/C# man.

If you include guys like Indy and Jay Santos and the scientiests, whose occupations usually tend to require a fair amount of programming, we may actually have as many "programmers" on here as lawyers! There is hope for CG yet.

Programmers of CougarGuard:
FMCoug
BigFatMeanie
Tex

Any others to add? I won't add Indy or Jay until they say they actually do programming in SAS, etc.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie

Arch, as a software developer (if indeed Tex is a programmer which I don't know for certain) I've got to call you out on this - why bring a man's occupation into it? Being a software developer is an honorable and profitable profession that has done much good for mankind. You, sir, are a lawyer - one of the most reviled and hated professions in the country. I'll try not to take jabs at the fact that you are a lawyer but I'll also say that you're definitely living in a glass house when it comes to occupation.

Now, if you're bagging on Javascript because it's not considered something that real developers do, then I would say take a look at what Google does with google maps, gmail, etc. - it's all AJAX development which is all about Javascript.

P.S. - I don't regularly program in Javascript myself. I'm a C/C++/C# man.

I've been the rounds with several languages but have settled the last few years with Java (very different from Javascript for you non-techies), and really enjoy it.

Of course, that means you and I are necessarily mortal enemies.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by FMCoug

If you include guys like Indy and Jay Santos and the scientiests, whose occupations usually tend to require a fair amount of programming, we may actually have as many "programmers" on here as lawyers! There is hope for CG yet.

Programmers of CougarGuard:
FMCoug
BigFatMeanie
Tex

Any others to add? I won't add Indy or Jay until they say they actually do programming in SAS, etc.

I am not a full-time programmer, but I have done plenty of programming in my career. At one time or another I have coded:

FORTRAN
Pascal
Modula-2
LISP
C
C++
C#
VB
Java
PHP

[BigFatMeanie]

Originally Posted by Tex

I've been the rounds with several languages but have settled the last few years with Java (very different from Javascript for you non-techies), and really enjoy it.

Of course, that means you and I are necessarily mortal enemies.

Funny, I'm doing a Java project right now. It's not my main bread and butter though.

[BigFatMeanie]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

FORTRAN
Pascal
Modula-2

Old fogey

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

LISP

Nerd

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

VB

Dork