Hillary for President

[BigFatMeanie]

Originally Posted by BlueHair

How many of these apply to our current government?

http://www.ellensplace.net/fascism.html

I would argue that two or perhaps three of the 14 apply to our country.

[BlueHair]

Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie

I would argue that two or perhaps three of the 14 apply to our country.

I would argue that maybe two or three don't apply. I actually think all of them apply to some extent. The items that apply most in my mind are: #1, 5, 7, 8, 9, 13.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Mr. Noah,

I don't know that most Americans are affected directly by the PATRIOT act. I don't think we're all being wiretapped or monitored by satellite surveillance. (Of course we wouldn't know if we were.)

But the PATRIOT act has made enormous work for libraries. One of the provisions is that library records can be seized at any time, and librarians are not allowed to disclose whether the feds have or have not seized records. Librarians tend to zealously guard the privacy of their users, so the result has been an industry-wide effort to change policy and procedure to protect the user. This has meant an increase in work and expense.

It's hard to explain this in such a way that any normal person would care, but the point is that yes, for some Americans day-to-day life has changed.

(end rant.)

Next topic:

Most Americans are probably not affected much, but I've had coworkers (American citizens) whose lives have become made more difficult due to the fact that they have Muslim names, and the PATRIOT act allows for profiling.

Sounds something like a FOIA request. I understand the pain such requests can bring. Forgive my ignorance, but why is access to library records of such importance to the government?

Naturally our day-to-day lives have been affected by 9-11. My blonde four-year-old was "profiled" along with the rest of us because we were flying on one-way tickets from Salt Lake City to Chattanooga a few years back. We were given special attention with those magic wands and our shoes were all searched thoroughly. I guess this is the new world we are living in.

Even then, we are far, far, far from the fascist police state that BlueHair suggests Bush has ushered in.

[Detroitdad]

Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie

I would argue that two or perhaps three of the 14 apply to our country.

I don't like the Bush Administration at all. But the level of erosion on these 14 points is IMHO not that high. Erring on these points has to be egregious to merit a black mark against the country. Our system has a robust opposition which is something that the fascist regimes studied lacked. I will say that some of the tendencies of the administration have pushed the envelope and some of the comments from the admin (such as Gonzalez's habeas corpus comments) are foreboding. But these guys were severely marginalized in the last election and hopefully their oversteps will be corrected.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by BlueHair

The items that apply most in my mind are: #1, 5, 7, 8, 9, 13.

How so and to what extent? You're going to have to do much better than citing isolated cases of arguable grievances. I fly the flag and suddenly I'm a fascist? Where's the rampant sexism ushered in by the Bush administration? We suffer attacks on U.S. interests outside the U.S. and then 9-11, so we focus on national security. Is that such an odd reaction? What exactly is the predominant religion of the U.S.? (Christianity? Wrong answer.) Corruption and cronyism, to the extent that they exist, were with us well before Bush arrived and will remain after he leaves. Richard J. Daley's well-organized Chicago Democratic political machine comes to mind.

Who is Dr. Lawrence Britt anyway and why should I listen to him?

[BlueHair]

Originally Posted by myboynoah

Even then, we are far, far, far from the fascist police state that BlueHair suggests Bush has ushered in.

I don't think we are a police state. I think the current administration has led us in a fascist direction. By the way, look up the the John Warner Defense Authorization Act. Here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R._5122 Basically, the President can declare Martial Law without notifying congress. It also overturns the Possee Comitatus Act which prohibits US troops from being used inside the United States borders. It also gives him the power to use the National Guard troops without notifying the Governor of the state.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by BlueHair

I don't think we are a police state. I think the current administration has led us in a fascist direction. By the way, look up the the John Warner Defense Authorization Act. Here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R._5122 Basically, the President can declare Martial Law without notifying congress. It also overturns the Possee Comitatus Act which prohibits US troops from being used inside the United States borders. It also gives him the power to use the National Guard troops without notifying the Governor of the state.

Why are you quoting out of context? Not good form.

[Archaea]

See, you all should save and move to Monaco with me. By the way, we have a Queen there and a Prince. We even have a bobsled team a la Jamaica.

It's real close to the ocean but not far from the mountains. We don't let in just any typical immigrants. And we're always stylin.

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by BlueHair

I don't think we are a police state. I think the current administration has led us in a fascist direction. By the way, look up the the John Warner Defense Authorization Act. Here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R._5122 Basically, the President can declare Martial Law without notifying congress. It also overturns the Possee Comitatus Act which prohibits US troops from being used inside the United States borders. It also gives him the power to use the National Guard troops without notifying the Governor of the state.

And how can you lay this at the feet of President Bush? That bill passed the House with 92% of the vote and by unanimous consent in the Senate. Very, very weak.

[Archaea]

I fault Bush for the excessive spending and the unPatriot Act, but the Dems would keep up the spending; they'd just pay for it with taxes. I didn't see many Dems voting against the un Patriot Act.