The Obama Judiciary

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

Because the train to stack the court with right wing ideologues is slowed?

That's a big deal. When are they going to get a chance like this again?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

So if Stevens retires (fairly likely, he's been hanging on, patiently), Obama appoints a liberal, no real change in the makeup of the court, right? The big change from a conservative point of view is if Kennedy or one of the Cons quits or dies. Otherwise, why would they be bitching? Because the train to stack the court with right wing ideologues is slowed?

You'd have a hard time making a case that any of the 4 so-called conservative justices are right-wing ideologues, but I confess I'd love to see you try.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

Dale is fortunate you were not arguing the case for him, or he would've lost 9-0 instead of 5-4.

He's fortunate that he lost instead of... lost? Under either scenario you have painted, he think he would have lost. I think our definition of "fortunate" also differs.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

He's fortunate that he lost instead of... lost? Under either scenario you have painted, he think he would have lost. I think our definition of "fortunate" also differs.

If we could get back to the point (AHEM) ...

As you know, the Dale case was not about boys having sex with scoutmasters, but about the right of the Boy Scouts--a private organization--to determine who they let into their association and who they don't. Another Obama liberal on that court would've made it a 5-4 in favor of Dale, and would've destroyed the Boy Scouts, not to mention a very important right that is actually IN the Constitution.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Tex

If we could get back to the point (AHEM) ...

As you know, the Dale case was not about boys having sex with scoutmasters, but about the right of the Boy Scouts--a private organization--to determine who they let into their association and who they don't. Another Obama liberal on that court would've made it a 5-4 in favor of Dale, and would've destroyed the Boy Scouts, not to mention a very important right that is actually IN the Constitution.

I think they made the right decision, but it would NOT have destroyed the Boy Scouts had they ruled the other way.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I think they made the right decision, but it would NOT have destroyed the Boy Scouts had they ruled the other way.

I agree. I'm sure there were some who were horrified at the prospect of Pollard's scoutmastership, or at the decision to allow girls membership at the high school level. And I'm certain there were those who thought those occasions marked the beginning of the end of scouting.

Scouting is dynamic and resilient and will survive, even if the government interferes with BSA's right to conduct business as it sees fit.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I think they made the right decision, but it would NOT have destroyed the Boy Scouts had they ruled the other way.

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

I agree. I'm sure there were some who were horrified at the prospect of Pollard's scoutmastership, or at the decision to allow girls membership at the high school level. And I'm certain there were those who thought those occasions marked the beginning of the end of scouting.

Scouting is dynamic and resilient and will survive, even if the government interferes with BSA's right to conduct business as it sees fit.

Well, this is all a matter of opinion, of course, but here's the result as I see it. The legal requirement to permit gay scoutmasters would've caused many religiously affiliated troops to sever ties, including the LDS Church. In addition, parents who opposed the idea (not few in number) would probably pull their children out of the programs. A group like scouting cannot remain resilient and dynamic without money or people.

The Boy Scouts may have survived in some form, maybe with troops affiliated with secular organizations in liberal parts of the country (like New Jersey, where Dale was). But the national organization as we think of it today would've been radically changed (my word: "destroyed").

The more significant implication, though, is the further curtailing of the freedom of association.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Tex

Well, this is all a matter of opinion, of course, but here's the result as I see it. The legal requirement to permit gay scoutmasters would've caused many religiously affiliated troops to sever ties, including the LDS Church. In addition, parents who opposed the idea (not few in number) would probably pull their children out of the programs. A group like scouting cannot remain resilient and dynamic without money or people.

So, the Boy Scouts may have survived in some form, troops affiliated with secular organizations in liberal parts of the country (like New Jersey, where Dale was). But the national organization as we think of it today would've been radically changed (my word: "destroyed").

I'll just be up front and admit that LDS-affiliated scouting is entirely foreign to me. I find it very confusing. And I was both a BS and a GS.

And honestly, Tex, I'll try not to step on any toes here, but I don't think the withdrawal of all the LDS youth would constitute the end or even much of a radical change of BSA, except possibly in the state of Utah, where LDS scouting would take over as the primary youth scouting program.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

I'll just be up front and admit that LDS-affiliated scouting is entirely foreign to me. I find it very confusing. And I was both a BS and a GS.

And honestly, Tex, I'll try not to step on any toes here, but I don't think the withdrawal of all the LDS youth would constitute the end or even much of a radical change of BSA, except possibly in the state of Utah, where LDS scouting would take over as the primary youth scouting program.

Probably correct on all accounts. The only reason I care about scouting is linked to my boys' interest, they both like it. Any revision which would eliminate those silly uniforms would be a plus.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

I'll just be up front and admit that LDS-affiliated scouting is entirely foreign to me. I find it very confusing. And I was both a BS and a GS.

And honestly, Tex, I'll try not to step on any toes here, but I don't think the withdrawal of all the LDS youth would constitute the end or even much of a radical change of BSA, except possibly in the state of Utah, where LDS scouting would take over as the primary youth scouting program.

Which is why I said the LDS church would not be the only religious group to sever ties, though with 30,000 units nationwide, LDS troops comprise 13% of BSA's total youth membership and is its largest single sponsor (via Wikipedia -- insert joke here). I'm not sure what the corresponding financial support is, but it's not trivial.

I think you underestimate the aversion among many parents to homosexuals leading troops of boys, but again, this is all opinion. Yours is as good as mine.