Israel as "occupiers" and other bull poop

[Indy Coug]

[MikeWaters]

Link to evidence that Israel has lived up to the Oslo accords?

[BYU71]

Occupiers, oppressors, terrorists, victims and it goes on and on and on. Thus nothing gets settled. The arguments are about opinions. The issue only has a right or wrong to it in someones mind. If minds haven't been changed yet, they won't be, unless of course Obama gets elected who has the ability to bring everyone together.

When it gets to this point we have to fall back to the realization we are part of the animal kingdom. In the animal kingdom, it is survival of the fittest. Perhaps it would be well for the Palestinians to recognize this and work out the best deal they can get.

[Oxcoug]

http://www.amazon.com/Missing-Peace-...2070345&sr=8-1

That's if you'd really like to get familiar with the subject.

Bottom line - the PLO violated nearly EVERY item it agreed to in the Declaration of Principles. In fact, while STILL in Oslo Arafat notoriously was telling Arab media (in a closed Arabic meeting) that he didn't take them seriously and that they were a means to an end.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Oxcoug

http://www.amazon.com/Missing-Peace-...2070345&sr=8-1

That's if you'd really like to get familiar with the subject.

Bottom line - the PLO violated nearly EVERY item it agreed to in the Declaration of Principles. In fact, while STILL in Oslo Arafat notoriously was telling Arab media (in a closed Arabic meeting) that he didn't take them seriously and that they were a means to an end.

From the Washington Post review of the book:

Still, when Ross steps back and reviews the trail of tears that the peace process became, he argues that both sides failed to live up to their commitments. Palestinian leaders failed to stop, and even gave support to, the suicide bombers, while Israelis never really eased the grip of their military occupation or stopped building and expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza.

We know Clinton blamed Arafat, for not taking the crumbs that Israel offered. That's hardly news.

[Oxcoug]

(and arguably a misrepresentation) of Ross's case - Ross does say (as would I - I have never said and don't believe that Israel is blameless) that both sides bear blame. But not equal blame, and not even close.

If you do read the book - which I would really recommend to anyone (though it is long), the man's knowledge of the conflict is probably greater than anyone on the planet - you'll see that his assessment that both bear blame is the way in which a 15 year old kid bears some blame in a fight with his 12 year old brother for not being mature enough - even though the 12 year old was the aggressor from the beginning.

[MikeWaters]

The American diplomat thinks that the Palestinians were the impediment to peace.

Shocker.

[Oxcoug]

why does Israel have a military presence in Gaza and the West Bank?

Because it doesn't trust that the PLO/Fatah/Hamas will do enough (or... anything) to prevent terrorist attacks... which gets back to its correct belief that none of those governing factions are really committed to Israel's right to exist.

The first thing Israel demanded in the Oslo accords - as a backdrop for trust and concessions - was that the PLO constitutionally acknowledge and commit itself to Israel's right to exist. The PLO agreed to do this... and never did.

To this day it never found its way into any PLO/Fatah document. Which left Israel thinking (fairly) - they do not acknowledge our right to exist and therefore we can only assume they remain committed to our destruction, therefore we cannot cede these territories which will be used to attack our civilians to their control.

But for the record - I am in total agreement that many of the West Bank settlements need to go. By force if necessary. Ironically, so are a majority of Israelis.

[Oxcoug]

befriended by Arafat. Again mate - stop dealing in simplifications.

He makes the case. Stop pretending you can dismiss the case with an offhand reference to him being an American.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by BYU71

Occupiers, oppressors, terrorists, victims and it goes on and on and on. Thus nothing gets settled. The arguments are about opinions. The issue only has a right or wrong to it in someones mind. If minds haven't been changed yet, they won't be, unless of course Obama gets elected who has the ability to bring everyone together.

When it gets to this point we have to fall back to the realization we are part of the animal kingdom. In the animal kingdom, it is survival of the fittest. Perhaps it would be well for the Palestinians to recognize this and work out the best deal they can get.

I'm no expert on this and have enjoyed reading the opinions of people much more informed than I am, but it seems like this is the inescapable conclusion. It IS survival of the fittest, or at least has been to this point. Correcting the injustices of the past (if you accept that there have been injustices), be it the Palestinians, Native Americans, African-Americans, Jews, or whomever else, would require a whole new set of injustices, without actually restoring anything to those originally injured. How is this a solution?

All we can do now is to do our best to prevent new wrongs from occurring.