National Health Care

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

I have never liked the idea of socialized medicine, but had not even taken into consideration the population of the US and how much more it would cost than in other countries.

I didn't think it was possible, but I am even more against it now.

Yeah, but more people = more resources. Seems like a weak argument to me.

[MikeWaters]

One question: In Zion, will all have equal access to medical care, in your opinion?

[JohnnyLingo]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

One question: In Zion, will all have equal access to medical care, in your opinion?

In Zion, you can get booted out for being lazy and not doing your share.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Yeah, but more people = more resources. Seems like a weak argument to me.

There are those who believe there aren't enough resources for the social programs already in place. Adding another that would be incredibly expensive would only deplete the $$$ even more.

I pay too much in taxes right now. I don't want to pay more.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

There are those who believe there aren't enough resources for the social programs already in place. Adding another that would be incredibly expensive would only deplete the $$$ even more.

I pay too much in taxes right now. I don't want to pay more.

So you must be outraged that we spend more on defense than the rest of the world combined.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

So you must be outraged that we spend more on defense than the rest of the world combined.

Well, a strong defense is a necessary thing in today's world. We need to find a way to make it more cost effective.

I can figure out where you're going with this, but I'd rather know that my taxes are going to something that is for national defense than to have to pay more for something that people could get if they did what they needed to do to get it. If people would take advantage of the educational opportunities available, they could better their lives and that betterment would include being able to get health care.

As I said, socialized medicine would be yet another expense. I'd rather invest that money in order for my kids to have something for their future.

[hyrum]

Originally Posted by tooblue

Living in Canada I'd like to read all about the system I currently live with. I bet the story(s) isn't as straight forward as your post suggests

The stories are real. Are they common?, I don't know. When you meet someone under 65 who needs a new knee or hip ask them how long it takes see a doctor, then how long to see a specialist, then how long to get into the hospital. Many people don't know or care about the details of the implants. Those who care (genreally young, athletic, etc) try to go to the best doctors/hospitals. Those have very long waiting lists, some over one year. When the wait seems too long or they cannot have access to the latest devices they spend their own money go to India. True.

http://www.cimca.ca/newsletter/issue04_05.html
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewa...p-surgery.html
http://www.embassymag.ca/html/index....ch/28/tourism/

Sample
"I was in real pain, and then he told me I had to wait two years, and my life was gone," recalls the mother of three and grandmother of six, who struggled even to get off the couch some days. "My little grandson would come down, and before I got bad, we used to walk all around Chester.

"We’d look at the ferry boat and we’d stop and throw things to the birds. I could not do that anymore. Eventually, I could not even get on our boat, walk down to the wharf. (Walking) was an absolute struggle."

Others continue to wait.

The latest Capital health authority figures put the median wait time for hip replacement at 302 days, well above the medically accepted standard of 180 days. The wait for knee replacement stands at 349 days. As of November 2007, 553 patients were on the list for the hip procedure, while 946 patients waited for knee replacements. And almost 3,700 were still waiting for all orthopedic procedures."
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1039971.html

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

Well, a strong defense is a necessary thing in today's world. We need to find a way to make it more cost effective.

I can figure out where you're going with this, but I'd rather know that my taxes are going to something that is for national defense than to have to pay more for something that people could get if they did what they needed to do to get it. If people would take advantage of the educational opportunities available, they could better their lives and that betterment would include being able to get health care.

As I said, socialized medicine would be yet another expense. I'd rather invest that money in order for my kids to have something for their future.

It's unfortunate how these arguments often lead to the "those poor people deserve what they get" line of reasoning.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

It's unfortunate how these arguments often lead to the "those poor people deserve what they get" line of reasoning.

Indeed. I'm certain the Almighty realizes that some kids are simply morally deserving of better care than others. That's how he picks out which income brackets the kids should be born into.

To add to our anecdotal database:

I network online with parents of other kids with with the chromosomal disorder my son has. There are parents from overseas, but for the most part these are American and Canadian parents. The impression that I get is that on a day-to-day basis, these kids are getting better care in Canada, but that when it comes time to schedule a surgery, the kids are often subjected to long waiting times because their surgeries are inevitably classified as "elective."

Here in the States, American kids can get the surgeries they need without delay, but have to wait a year or more to get the wheelchairs/walkers/other equipment they need while the insurance companies try to figure out a way to deny the claim; and most of the day-to-day care matters are left up to the parents, with no assistance from either the government or from private insurance.

In general, my impression is that Americans who have little need for healthcare are the ones willing to defend our system to the ends of the earth, mostly because they have no first-hand experience with the problems of the system.

Personally, I think we should be ashamed that we are the only industrialized nation that fails to provide care for its citizens. Perhaps MRD has a point that the sheer numbers make the matter hopelessly difficult, but my immediate thought is the same as Lebowski's: that this should provide more resources to make the system workable.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

It's unfortunate how these arguments often lead to the "those poor people deserve what they get" line of reasoning.

It's also unfortunate that many who are more supportive of socialized medicine interpret anything that opponents say as the "those poor people deserve what they get" line of thinking.

I'm not saying that everyone who doesn't have health care deserves it. There are many in a situation in which they are unable to get it. But I feel rather confident that the majority in that situation are there as a result of their own choices. If, after they do all they can do on their own, are unable to get what they need, then I have no problem in finding ways to help them. I'm just tired of doing everything I do in order to take care of me and my family and then being told I have to do more for those who are unwilling to do it as well.

I'll suggest the same thing I suggested on utefans in a debate like this. I challenged all those who want socialized medicine to voluntarily pay extra taxes in order to make it happen. Those of us who chose not to won't be able to access that health care.

Sound fair?