Hand Over Heart

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by Solon

I never do. It seems fascist. Is this really a big deal to people? I'll stand; I'll take my hat off; but the hand-salute stuff for civilians creeps me out.

If you run for president of these United States, I suggest you do so. I'd also bone up on the pledge. Votes like that kind of thing.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

What about continuing to walk to class while the National Anthem is being played over loudspeakers on campus? What about cutting corners through the grass while doing so?

I think that's annoying when people kept walking during the anthem at BYU. For me it's less about showing respect for the actual hymn, and more about taking a minute to stop what you're doing and be grateful for where you are and what's you've been given.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by woot

I don't mind the national anthem too much (although yes, I kept walking when they played it at BYU), but the pledge of allegiance is extremely creepy to me. Even ignoring the separation of church and state issues, pledging allegiance to anything, let alone a piece of cloth, seems like something members of an enlightened society would want to avoid.

Have you no understanding of symbolism?

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

What about continuing to walk to class while the National Anthem is being played over loudspeakers on campus? What about cutting corners through the grass while doing so?

At our country's holiest of holies military institutions there are some very strange subcultural habits. The effort we would often go to avoid having to lock it up for reveille, retirment of the colors or taps was nothing short of monumental. Usually if one was unable to get inside of the barracks when retirement was played would result in being bombarded with all sorts of debris as one stood fully erect presenting arms. I once got hit in the nose with a hostess cupcake, but true to my general orders I continued to stay at my post. I felt like a porn star.

Sad that even those of us discharged with protecting democracy's fragile peace and livin' large on the US Taxpayers demonstrated the same disrespectful intentions at the mormon church's Academy.

However, I bet your chicks were hotter and probably even put out more.

[JohnnyLingo]

Originally Posted by Solon

So, I guess Barack didn't put his hand over his heart during the national anthem.

http://www.slate.com/id/2177887/?GT1=10636

I never do. It seems fascist. Is this really a big deal to people? I'll stand; I'll take my hat off; but the hand-salute stuff for civilians creeps me out.

Of course, the real issue here is that not doing so costs him votes.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by creekster

I don't think it should be a law, but I truly doubt that you can't distinguish the purpose, sentiment and intention of placing your hand over your heart during the national anthem or pledge of allegiance from a sieg heil or a sieg mussolini or whichever fascist salute you're thinking of. Don't misunderstand, you're entitled to your opinion and I don't criticize you for having it, but I think it is based more in youth than anything else (I say this as someone who, some years ago, also refused to engage in this act for similar reasons; for me, it passed).

On the surface, I don't think it differs all that much from fascist salutes from the early 20th century. There used to be an Olympic salute that athletes would do when they won in the modern games. In 1936, Jesse Owens didn't know what to do because the Olympic salute was the same as the Nazi salute. So, he gave an awkward military salute instead.

http://www.grizedale.org/2007/03/17/...02-293x400.jpg

I think the salute (and, consequently for me, putting hand over heart) is just one more thing that the Nazis screwed up for everyone (like the swastika).

I'm a patriotic person; I've served my country. I just don't like physical salute (for civilians), as if a gesture somehow conveys additional nationalistic devotion. I have no problem if others do it, but I haven't done it for several years. I stand for the national anthem. I'll say the pledge of allegiance. But I leave my hands at my sides.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

Of course, the real issue here is that not doing so costs him votes.

That's essentially my question - is this the kind of thing that bugs a lot of people, or is it a non-issue?

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Solon

That's essentially my question - is this the kind of thing that bugs a lot of people, or is it a non-issue?

This leads to a different question that I think we're missing. It's not, "Would I do it?" but "Do I want my President doing it?"

If I go to a basketball game and I don't put my hand over my heart for the national anthem, or the guy 6 seats down from me doesn't, or whatever ... what's the real impact? I'm just one man. The President on the other hand is not just a man ... it's a symbol, an office, and a position that comes with considerable pomp and ceremony.

Whether you like it or not, hand-over-the-heart is a standard sign of respect for the symbols of the country and the sacrifices they represent. You can not do so and still inwardly respect those sacrifices, just like you can have a mohawk, 7 tattoos, and a tongue-piercing and still be a inwardly be Mother Teresa. But people make judgments on what you do, and sometimes it is the small things that matter.

I won't be making my judgment on who to vote for based on this issue, but I think it can belie a deeper misunderstanding about the office of the Presidency.

[woot]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

Have you no understanding of symbolism?

Perhaps I should have been more explicit. Even if you assume that the flag represents the nation, which I find quite silly, and which isn't necessarily supported in the text, since "and to the republic for which it stands" is mentioned separately, pledging allegiance to the nation doesn't sit well with me.

If it said something like "I pledge allegiance to the values of the United States, as long as they are not corrupted by our politicians..." then maybe, but even then those values would have to be enumerated.

I'm not a fan of the word "fascist," as it gets tossed around so much, but the forced recitation of a brainless nationalistic oath seems to fit the definition. Luckily, the laws concerning its recitation are no longer enforced, but the idea is the same.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by Tex

This leads to a different question that I think we're missing. It's not, "Would I do it?" but "Do I want my President doing it?"

If I go to a basketball game and I don't put my hand over my heart for the national anthem, or the guy 6 seats down from me doesn't, or whatever ... what's the real impact? I'm just one man. The President on the other hand is not just a man ... it's a symbol, an office, and a position that comes with considerable pomp and ceremony.

Whether you like it or not, hand-over-the-heart is a standard sign of respect for the symbols of the country and the sacrifices they represent. You can not do so and still inwardly respect those sacrifices, just like you can have a mohawk, 7 tattoos, and a tongue-piercing and still be a inwardly be Mother Teresa. But people make judgments on what you do, and sometimes it is the small things that matter.

I won't be making my judgment on who to vote for based on this issue, but I think it can belie a deeper misunderstanding about the office of the Presidency.

Obviously.

But I was wondering if other people think this is a big deal. You say it can be a big deal - sure; otherwise, CNN.com would have nothing to write about. But is it a big deal to individuals? Do you (or anyone else) care personally if a candidate for president doesn't do it?