A Call to Arms

[MikeWaters]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/opinion/02tue3.html

The NY Times is editorializing that the gun lobby (which is us) is weak. And now is the time to move on gun control.

It's time for us to put our money where our mouth is. This is a critical juncture.

They are not trying to take guns out of the hands of criminals. They are trying to take them from you and me.

NRA and Gun Owners of America are two good places to start.

[Venkman]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/opinion/02tue3.html

The NY Times is editorializing that the gun lobby (which is us) is weak. And now is the time to move on gun control.

It's time for us to put our money where our mouth is. This is a critical juncture.

They are not trying to take guns out of the hands of criminals. They are trying to take them from you and me.

NRA and Gun Owners of America are two good places to start.

“Don’t tell me we can’t uphold the Second Amendment while keeping AK-47s out of the hands of criminals,”

Huh? Are we lacking laws barring criminals from owning AK-47's? Are Republicans FOR criminals having AK-47's?

Liberals are such flat-out liars on the Second Ammendment. They DON'T believe in it but they won't say it because it's not politically viable. They lie in wait though, biding their time until the opportunity is there to make their move.

Liberals favorite fake president, Michael Douglas said it best: "I'm going to go door to door if I have to, but I'm going to get the guns!"

I have renewed my NRA membership, and I'll probably revive my GOA membership (these guys are hard-core).

[il Padrino Ute]

I've re-upped with the NRA.

Venkman, tell me more about the GOA.

[MikeWaters]

http://www.gunowners.org/

GOA is for people who feel like the NRA is too pro-gun control. It wouldn't hurt to give money to both.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

http://www.gunowners.org/

GOA is for people who feel like the NRA is too pro-gun control. It wouldn't hurt to give money to both.

I'm now a proud member of both organizations.

[Ma'ake]

I've never understood exactly why the pro-gun folks are so adamantly opposed to registration. Is it because they really believe their guns will be rounded up? What about the conceal carry permit system? That's registration, isn't it?

It seems to me the merging of criminals & assault weaponry occurs (to a significant extent) because there *is* no registration. Registration would require the crackpot to fill out paperwork & maybe prove some kind of documentation that they're fit to own a weapon. If gun shops were required to submit gun registration material maybe they'd participate more aggressively in weeding the crackpots out. 99.x% of gun owners are decent, safe, upstanding people. It's that fraction of a percent that, combined with an AK-47, becomes the catalyst for disaster.

Pro-gun paranoia, combined with a culture of violence (drug, gang), combined with paranoia-stoking gun manufacturers, have produced a society that has more guns than people. The pro-gun admonition of "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is quite true - because there ARE SO MANY guns it's impossible to try to reduce the number or have any kind of meaningful discussion on how to reduce gun deaths (besides "let everyone wear a concealed weapon and we'll all be safer").

It all adds up to the industrialized world's version of Somalia. Look at the stats. That's not "freedom".

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

I've never understood exactly why the pro-gun folks are so adamantly opposed to registration. Is it because they really believe their guns will be rounded up? What about the conceal carry permit system? That's registration, isn't it?

It seems to me the merging of criminals & assault weaponry occurs (to a significant extent) because there *is* no registration. Registration would require the crackpot to fill out paperwork & maybe prove some kind of documentation that they're fit to own a weapon. If gun shops were required to submit gun registration material maybe they'd participate more aggressively in weeding the crackpots out. 99.x% of gun owners are decent, safe, upstanding people. It's that fraction of a percent that, combined with an AK-47, becomes the catalyst for disaster.

Pro-gun paranoia, combined with a culture of violence (drug, gang), combined with paranoia-stoking gun manufacturers, have produced a society that has more guns than people. The pro-gun admonition of "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is quite true - because there ARE SO MANY guns it's impossible to try to reduce the number or have any kind of meaningful discussion on how to reduce gun deaths (besides "let everyone wear a concealed weapon and we'll all be safer").

It all adds up to the industrialized world's version of Somalia. Look at the stats. That's not "freedom".

Are you assuming the criminal element will go through the legal channels to get their guns?

[MikeWaters]

First off, most crime doesn't occur with an AK-47. They are not very concealable. Nor are they very cheap.

So this is what you think the average predator thinks? "Man, I was going to go and car-jack a hot chick, rape her, and shoot her in face, but damn, now they are making me register my guns, and because I have a prior felony, I can't, therefore I can't possess a gun and engage in a life of crime."

Are you aware that when you purchase a gun from a gun dealer that a record is kept of that purchase along with a background check? Probably not.

And yes, history tells us that eventually lists are used to knock on people's doors.

[Ma'ake]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

Are you assuming the criminal element will go through the legal channels to get their guns?

If it's easy & there is no paper trail, why not? The US is the main supplier of weapons in the drug wars that currently plague Mexico. It's much easier to get weaponry in the US than it is in most 3rd world nations. You don't even need to buy from a car trunk. Just go to a gun store or gun show.

I'm not saying that registration will prevent people from getting guns. We have far too much metal out there for that. But if you nail criminals who don't have registered guns, it's a start toward driving down violence.

[Ma'ake]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

First off, most crime doesn't occur with an AK-47. They are not very concealable. Nor are they very cheap.

So this is what you think the average predator thinks? "Man, I was going to go and car-jack a hot chick, rape her, and shoot her in face, but damn, now they are making me register my guns, and because I have a prior felony, I can't, therefore I can't possess a gun and engage in a life of crime."

Are you aware that when you purchase a gun from a gun dealer that a record is kept of that purchase along with a background check? Probably not.

And yes, history tells us that eventually lists are used to knock on people's doors.

For many predators, of course not. For some that are likely to be influenced by deterrents - or the threat of having a weapon traced back to them - sure, it will keep some of them from doing the crime. (The same thing is true of murder. How many murders are prevented by the deterrence of prison? A fair number, is my guess).

Yes, I'm aware of the background checks, but it tells us nothing about whether that person has a weapon, where the weapon might be, etc. My understanding is an illegal immigrant could go into a gun shop with ID that says his name is "Alice Jones", and the gun store owner has zero obligation to do anything but run a background check that later becomes de-identified.

About the knocking on doors, I have four vehicle registered in my name. If one of my kids or somebody who steals one of my cars does something wrong with them, I definitely want to know. Nobody will take my cars away (unless they get old enough to be unsafe or pollute too much.)

Here's another example of the gun lobby being out of touch - their opposition to no-knock warrants. I understand the rationale for a gun owner not wanting to have no-knock warrants: police make mistakes & target the wrong house, and if the cops break into your house & you pull a gun in self defense, that's your last act on Earth.

But what are the ramifications for society of eliminating no-knock warrants? Significant. I have no problem with cops breaking down my door, even in error. They're highly trained, I'm not doing anything wrong. No harm, no foul.

Here's another example of gun rights leading to chaos: conceal carry permits & crimes in progress. Like the massacre at Trolley Square, if there were several conceal carry permit holders trying to take out the gunman, who are the police supposed to shoot? Are concealed weapons holders supposed to have a secret call sign or code to ID them as legit? (And who thinks the bad guys wouldn't get that call sign?)

Again, I'm not saying these are black & white issues, only that the problematic elements never get addressed by the gun folks. I'm also not saying the anti-gun folks are completely straight. It's just another combustible issue, and meanwhile, like in a family I knew in Sandy, kids get killed playing with guns, even kids who've been trained by their parents to know better.