Interesting... - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

ilmf · 12-28-2007, 07:50 PM

"A Salt Lake City publisher has released the papers of William McLellin, an early Mormon convert who was close to church founder Joseph Smith.

McLellin eventually left the church. He writes that he never heard a contemporary account from Smith of a visit from God and Jesus Christ in upstate New York.

McLellin says he also wasn't aware of the angel Moroni, who led Smith to buried gold plates that became the church's foundational text.

The apostate's claims raise questions about whether Smith was padding the Mormon story as time passed. Or McLellin could have been so embittered he was trying to undermine the church."

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2395721

RockyBalboa · 12-28-2007, 08:28 PM

An apostate claiming that Joseph Smith's first vision is false because he refused to give him a first hand re-counting.

I for one am utterly shocked.

Archaea · 12-28-2007, 08:29 PM

There were sufficient numbers of others who contradict that so as to make his lack of recollection not that significant.

ilmf · 12-28-2007, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

An apostate claiming that Joseph Smith's first vision is false because he refused to give him a first hand re-counting.

I for one am utterly shocked.

Where does it say the dead guy claimed the first vision is false? All KSL says is that the guy never heard an account of a visit from God and Jesus from JS. It doesn't say JS refused anything. Naturally it would be strange for a person who was close to JS to have never heard an account of the vision from JS.

Maybe you've read the papers, if so I apologize.

pelagius · 12-28-2007, 08:37 PM

The first vision part is not surprising at all. There were lots of members of the church that were not aware of the first vision in the early years. It just didn't have the prominence and importance in the early days of the church that it does now. When early church members talked about "the Vision" they were usually referring to what later became section 76 and not the first vision. There is nothing nefarious going on here and one should not draw a negative inference about the historicity of the first vision from this information

RockyBalboa · 12-28-2007, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilmf

Where does it say the dead guy claimed the first vision is false? All KSL says is that the guy never heard an account of a visit from God and Jesus from JS. It doesn't say JS refused anything. Naturally it would be strange for a person who was close to JS to have never heard an account of the vision from JS.

Maybe you've read the papers, if so I apologize.

I don't share all my sacred and personal experiences with everyone close to me.

Do you?

UtahDan · 12-28-2007, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockyBalboa

I don't share all my sacred and personal experiences with everyone close to me.

Do you?

No, but I'm not the prophet charged with restoring the true church and God hasn't appeared to me.

Generally, when I read accounts where church leaders say they have had a heavenly visitation I tend to believe the sincerity of the account. When there is silence, I don't infer that there is something occurring that I just haven't been told about.

In this case, however, I think that there is very little question that the first vision account became more emphasized and more embellished (and I don't mean that pejoratively at all, I simply mean that as time goes on he adds more details) as time went on. My supposition was that as Joseph matured its significance became clearer to him and he became better at expressing what had occurred. I agree that in this case there is no negative inference to be drawn here.

12-28-2007, 07:50 PM	#1
ilmf Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 71	Interesting... "A Salt Lake City publisher has released the papers of William McLellin, an early Mormon convert who was close to church founder Joseph Smith. McLellin eventually left the church. He writes that he never heard a contemporary account from Smith of a visit from God and Jesus Christ in upstate New York. McLellin says he also wasn't aware of the angel Moroni, who led Smith to buried gold plates that became the church's foundational text. The apostate's claims raise questions about whether Smith was padding the Mormon story as time passed. Or McLellin could have been so embittered he was trying to undermine the church." http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2395721

12-28-2007, 08:28 PM	#2
RockyBalboa Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 7,297	An apostate claiming that Joseph Smith's first vision is false because he refused to give him a first hand re-counting. I for one am utterly shocked. __________________ Masquerading as Cougarguards very own genius dumbass since 05'.

12-28-2007, 08:29 PM	#3
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	There were sufficient numbers of others who contradict that so as to make his lack of recollection not that significant. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

12-28-2007, 08:37 PM	#5
pelagius Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,431	The first vision part is not surprising at all. There were lots of members of the church that were not aware of the first vision in the early years. It just didn't have the prominence and importance in the early days of the church that it does now. When early church members talked about "the Vision" they were usually referring to what later became section 76 and not the first vision. There is nothing nefarious going on here and one should not draw a negative inference about the historicity of the first vision from this information Last edited by pelagius; 12-28-2007 at 08:39 PM.