Shortcomings in living prophets?

[JohnnyLingo]

Since so many of you are comfortable deciding what shortcomings men like David O. McKay and Brigham Young had, I'm interested in knowing what problems you see in those currently sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.

I know President Packer is disliked... someone want to outline the reasons why? And feel free to bash on anyone else you feel has major unresolved sins.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

Since so many of you are comfortable deciding what shortcomings men like David O. McKay and Brigham Young had, I'm interested in knowing what problems you see in those currently sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.

I know President Packer is disliked... someone want to outline the reasons why? And feel free to bash on anyone else you feel has major unresolved sins.

Nearly every American who was McKay's age in the 50's and 60's was racist. I'm sure I would have been as well. He wasn't progressive when it came to race and civil rights, but I don't hold it against him. In fact, McKay is my favorite prophet if it's ok to have a favorite. I think most of us are far more comfortable than you appear to be with the notion that God calls men and not perfect beings as his leaders. They do their best and God is pleased with that.

Oh, and spare us the "unresolved sins" line. Nobody here has said that.

[creekster]

JL given that you protest and object to how much we wallow in the mire here, why do you water the ground and jump in first like this?

[The_Tick]

JL,

I always stay out of the religion section because I don't believe that contention is good.

But here you go....

I believe that not only the latter-day prophets, but also the prophets in the old and new testaments all had shortcomings. This even included Jesus himself. He was half man after all.

I think too many people in the church think these people are infallable. When in fact they are as human as you and I are. I have heard more references to "singing a tune in your heart when you have impure thoughts" in conference lately. And these are apostles and Elder's that say "this is exactly what I do". I appriciate hearing that stuff. It makes me feel good knowing that I am not the only one with issues.


Also....

I thought you weren't going to hang out here anymore? Isn't that what you said about 18 months ago?

[SoCalCoug]

I think Lingo's (unintentionally) hit on the disconnect here.

Today, I think we're more enlightened about race issues, and I think anyone in our present culture who is racist is ignorant or simply evil (i.e., skinheads).

Calling someone living in our society today a "racist" is the equivalent of calling them morally corrupt.

Calling someone living in 1940's and 1950's Utah a "racist" is more a statement of fact than anything. It's not meant in a pejorative way. Much of the culture of white America in those times had racist views toward blacks.

When we say the church hierarchy in that time was racist, it's just an indication that they were consistent with their culture and time. We're not saying that they were evil or even sinning in their thoughts. That was just a mindset of much of white America, particularly in Utah, where there were very few black people at all at that time.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by SoCalCoug

I think Lingo's (unintentionally) hit on the disconnect here.

Today, I think we're more enlightened about race issues, and I think anyone in our present culture who is racist is ignorant or simply evil (i.e., skinheads).

Calling someone living in our society today a "racist" is the equivalent of calling them morally corrupt.

Calling someone living in 1940's and 1950's Utah a "racist" is more a statement of fact than anything. It's not meant in a pejorative way. Much of the culture of white America in those times had racist views toward blacks.

When we say the church hierarchy in that time was racist, it's just an indication that they were consistent with their culture and time. We're not saying that they were evil or even sinning in their thoughts. That was just a mindset of much of white America, particularly in Utah, where there were very few black people at all at that time.

I think you are absolutely correct.

[JohnnyLingo]

I believe that not only the latter-day prophets, but also the prophets in the old and new testaments all had shortcomings. This even included Jesus himself. He was half man after all.

Uh.................. apparently you have a different interpretation of "sinless life" than I do.

I think Lingo's (unintentionally) hit on the disconnect here.

Today, I think we're more enlightened about race issues, and I think anyone in our present culture who is racist is ignorant or simply evil (i.e., skinheads).

Calling someone living in our society today a "racist" is the equivalent of calling them morally corrupt.

Calling someone living in 1940's and 1950's Utah a "racist" is more a statement of fact than anything. It's not meant in a pejorative way. Much of the culture of white America in those times had racist views toward blacks.

When we say the church hierarchy in that time was racist, it's just an indication that they were consistent with their culture and time. We're not saying that they were evil or even sinning in their thoughts. That was just a mindset of much of white America, particularly in Utah, where there were very few black people at all at that time.

So God was perfectly willing to allow His church to deny blessings to millions of His children because of the prevailing culture? That doesn't sound very merciful or loving to me.

In fact is sounds kind of racist.

[SoCalCoug]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

So God was perfectly willing to allow His church to deny blessings to millions of His children because of the prevailing culture? That doesn't sound very merciful or loving to me.

In fact is sounds kind of racist.

so you don't believe in the apostasy, where God allowed tens and hundreds of millions of his children to not be able to enjoy the blessings of the church because of the persecution of the early apostles?

So God is perfectly willing to allow millions of His children in the middle east and Asia to not have the opportunity to learn the gospel because of the prevailing culture and religion?

Your argument is not sound.

[JohnnyLingo]

so you don't believe in the apostasy, where God allowed tens and hundreds of millions of his children to enjoy the blessings of the church because of the persecution of the early apostles?

So God is perfectly willing to allow millions of His children in the middle east and Asia to not have the opportunity to learn the gospel because of the prevailing culture and religion?

Your argument is not sound.

Major major differences here.

God will not take the agency from His children. He will not force His gospel into countries where its leaders are unwilling to allow it to go. He will not prevent His children from killing His servants if that is what they are hell-bent on doing.

But in a situation where He has prophets on the earth, prophets called of Him and under His inspiration, I believe He will not allow these men to lead His church in a direction contrary to His will in such a major way.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

Since so many of you are comfortable deciding what shortcomings men like David O. McKay and Brigham Young had, I'm interested in knowing what problems you see in those currently sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.

I know President Packer is disliked... someone want to outline the reasons why? And feel free to bash on anyone else you feel has major unresolved sins.

I try not to take inventory of others' sins, and try to focus on my own. But I would guess that the members of the 12 and first presidency struggle with the same mortal sins that others do: selfishness, pride, egocentricism (which displays itself as racism, sexism, etc), lust, etc. I don't know anybody who doesn't struggle with those.