the church in Africa

[tooblue]

Originally Posted by Solon

First, it's hardly a "straw man" to take exception to Jay Santos' post:

"I'll take any of the West African countries: . . . That's where most of the great black athletes are descended from in sports like BB, FB, soccer, sprinting and jumping events of track."

This is the only thing I found objectionable. It's perfectly valid and kind of funny to dream about discovering great African athletes for the team. Santos' post, however, struck me as being in poor taste. Nothing against him personally; he probably didn't intend it that way.

Second, my objection to Santos' post is rooted in the historical processes which have led to changing perceptions of race and athletics. A hundred years ago, black athletes were considered inferior. Today, many consider the black athlete to be superior. If we narrow it down to specific groups of families or genetic traits, we can identify traits that make better athletes. These traits, however, are not "racial" traits . . i.e. they don't transcend the entire race like the more obvious (defining) features (most obviously skin color).

If you want to say that the elite distance-running people from Kenya are a "race," fine - that's the terminology issue Mike W identified. But I'm understanding "race" in this regard refer mainly to skin color.

Seriously, though. Did Santos' post not bother anyone else? Maybe I am a freak.

Also, if you get a chance, read those articles I referenced. They're by leading sport historians and don't really pass judgment on today as much as make you realize 19th and 20th centuries were really messed up.

I just posted a link to a Time mag article in the Basketball forum that relates to this thread.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by jay santos

In addition to track, NBA players with West Africa descent have also emerged from North America, Carribean, Europe, and Africa. Almost as stark as the 100M example is the World Cup soccer observation. Brazil, England, France, Holland, and even US where soccer is not popular among black youth--players with West African descent are overrepresented in all those countries.

Football is an American sport, so you can't draw the same comparison.

So it's neither stereotyping nor going out on a limb to say that if you had a pool of West African saints, you could develop some good football and basketball players.

that is not true about soccer... Brazil's best players are not of west african descent

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Solon

First, it's hardly a "straw man" to take exception to Jay Santos' post:

"I'll take any of the West African countries: . . . That's where most of the great black athletes are descended from in sports like BB, FB, soccer, sprinting and jumping events of track."

This is the only thing I found objectionable. It's perfectly valid and kind of funny to dream about discovering great African athletes for the team. Santos' post, however, struck me as being in poor taste. Nothing against him personally; he probably didn't intend it that way.

Second, my objection to Santos' post is rooted in the historical processes which have led to changing perceptions of race and athletics. A hundred years ago, black athletes were considered inferior. Today, many consider the black athlete to be superior. If we narrow it down to specific groups of families or genetic traits, we can identify traits that make better athletes. These traits, however, are not "racial" traits . . i.e. they don't transcend the entire race like the more obvious (defining) features (most obviously skin color).

If you want to say that the elite distance-running people from Kenya are a "race," fine - that's the terminology issue Mike W identified. But I'm understanding "race" in this regard refer mainly to skin color.

Seriously, though. Did Santos' post not bother anyone else? Maybe I am a freak.

Also, if you get a chance, read those articles I referenced. They're by leading sport historians and don't really pass judgment on today as much as make you realize 19th and 20th centuries were really messed up.

I'm usually the guy taking offense at someone else's racist post. I take that stuff pretty seriously. I've made several posts on the topic.

I think we're both racist. I think your racism takes you to a place where you're afraid to death to talk about it. My racism is a different form. Neither one is malicious. It's impossible to talk about racial issues without exhibiting some racism. But I think it's better to talk than ignore.

I appreciate the acknowledgement of the non-scientific reasons for why those of West African descent excel in sports. I should probably be more careful like I wasn't in my initial post, but I'm assuming my audience knows my irreverent nature and my lack of malice in racial issues. I'm the grace/tolerance guy.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You have no idea what China is investing to surpass the west in sports. They have the East German scientists to help them cheat. They take the kids from early ages, two or three after genetic testing, they even mate good athletes to produce better athletes. Eventually they will be the world superpower in sport. Unless they overload on steroids, they don't have the proper combination of explosion and power to sprint with the world's best despite Herculean efforts to do so. China has a tradition for excellence and will surpass us in almost everything.

Just like Japan was going to own all of america and the USSR would eventually produce the best athletes....

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

that is not true about soccer... Brazil's best players are not of west african descent

You sure about that? Explain then. Maybe I'm ignorant.

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by jay santos

I'm usually the guy taking offense at someone else's racist post. I take that stuff pretty seriously. I've made several posts on the topic.

I think we're both racist. I think your racism takes you to a place where you're afraid to death to talk about it. My racism is a different form. Neither one is malicious. It's impossible to talk about racial issues without exhibiting some racism. But I think it's better to talk than ignore.

I appreciate the acknowledgement of the non-scientific reasons for why those of West African descent excel in sports. I should probably be more careful like I wasn't in my initial post, but I'm assuming my audience knows my irreverent nature and my lack of malice in racial issues. I'm the grace/tolerance guy.

I dont think you understand what racism means...

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Solon

Seriously, though. Did Santos' post not bother anyone else? Maybe I am a freak.

Santos' post was way out of bounds. Apart from the fact that it reflects ignorance in terms of the empirical evidence, it hasn't been mentioned that this kind of talk is just plain offensive to educated people, especially educated blacks. This is enough reason for people to keep such uninformed opinions to themselves. No one should want to put a "kick me I'm an ignoramous" sign on themselves.

Santos is on record declaring eveyone to be a racist so what do you expect?

[Mormon Red Death]

Originally Posted by jay santos

You sure about that? Explain then. Maybe I'm ignorant.

Below is a list of the 20 players with the most appearances for Brazil, as of March 28, 2006:
# Name Career Caps Goals
1 Cafu 1990 - 2006 142 5
2 Roberto Carlos 1992 - 2006 125 11
3 Cláudio Taffarel 1987 - 1998 101 0
4 Djalma Santos 1952 - 1968 98 3
5 Ronaldo* 1994 - present 97 62
6 Gilmar 1953 - 1969 94 0
7 Pelé 1957 - 1971 92 77
= Rivelino 1965 - 1978 92 26
9 Dida* 1995 - 2006 91 0
= Dunga 1982 - 1998 91 6
11 Zé Roberto* 1995 - present 84 6
12 Aldair 1989 - 2000 81 3
= Jairzinho 1963 - 1982 81 33
14 Leão 1970 - 1986 80 0
15 Bebeto 1985 - 1998 75 39
= Nílton Santos 1949 - 1962 75 3
17 Rivaldo* 1993 - 2003 74 34
18 Emerson* 1997 - present 73 6
= Ronaldinho* 1999 - present 73 29
20 Branco 1985 - 1994 72 9
= Zico 1971 - 1989 72 52

Only 3-5 of them are of western aftrican descent....

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

I dont think you understand what racism means...

Well there's the official dictionary definition and the functional definition.

The functional definition of racism is using race as a basis to treat a person of one race worse than another.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death

I dont think you understand what racism means...

Afreakingmen.