Gay Mormons committing suicide

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

My friend grew up on the bench, near Hogle Zoo, went to East HS.

He said he went through phases of depression and self-loathing because he hated who he was. After BYU, he moved up to SLC for awhile, but eventually moved to the Bay Area. He said leaving Utah was hard because he loved his home, but living in NorCal has finally afforded him the ability to feel free.

His words, not mine.

Isn't suicide a genetic tendency? And if so, can it really be helped?

I don't believe culture has much of an influence upon suicide, as correlations have established your voodoo science. It's far-fetched. Why not isolate the genetic code which influences an individual toward suicide rather blame culture.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Isn't suicide a genetic tendency? And if so, can it really be helped?

I don't believe culture has much of an influence upon suicide, as correlations have established your voodoo science. It's far-fetched. Why not isolate the genetic code which influences an individual toward suicide rather blame culture.

I actually am unaware so my response here would be just a guess.

I also have no problem with the hypothesis that suicide is a genetic pre-disposition. That is not outlandish.

However, like with all other pre-dispositions, do you not agree that external variables influence the likelihood of acting upon said disposition?

Living in a culture where non-conformity results in spiritual, social, emotional, and often physical ostracization is likely not a healthy alternative for those who are genetically pre-disposed to suicide.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

A few that I found:

http://www.edweek.org/login.html?sou...&baddebt=false

http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_d...&id=13737&cn=9

After reading this, I am starting to worry for landpoke:

http://www.bluecorncomics.com/suicide.htm


This is a good one. It has a table of suicide rates for 2005. Utah is #15, but appears to be the lowest in the region:

http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html#2005

So suicide is more closely correlated to availability of guns and not church's stance on gay marriage. LOL @ Waters.

The body count is piling up, yet Waters continues his stance on guns.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

I actually am unaware so my response here would be just a guess.

I also have no problem with the hypothesis that suicide is a genetic pre-disposition. That is not outlandish.

However, like with all other pre-dispositions, do you not agree that external variables influence the likelihood of acting upon said disposition?

Living in a culture where non-conformity results in spiritual, social, emotional, and often physical ostracization is likely not a healthy alternative for those who are genetically pre-disposed to suicide.

Because I am not an expert in the field of suicide, I am unable to determine without further study what are the correlative aspects which contribute to suicide. Now if it is a course of Mike's study, he should be more aware of which aspects are. Yet he is not phrasing his opposition to one part of mainstream Church culture in a very professional manner, so it looks to me as if he's just winging it.

If gay behavior is all genes, then we must conclude that suicidal behavior is also all genetic to follow the current mode of logic in this thread.

[Indy Coug]

What no one has provided is any evidence that even ASSUMING Utah has a significantly elevated suicide rate that the excess rate of suicides is due to various political, social and religious pressures on gays.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

In a culture obsessed with perfection, an awkward gay Mormon teenager in Utah must feel like one of the most imperfect people on earth.

True or false?

True I would think. I think there is a struggle that a lot of young LDS guys go through from the time they are mid teens to mid twenties. Lots of guys simply follow the plan and serve a mission, go to a church school, and get married. There are lots, however, who can't or don't serve a mission, have to come home early, then struggle to fit in. Or maybe they struggle to find a spouse and struggle to fit in.

Then for the most part I believe they realize how many other people there are like them and their world isn't quite so upside down any more. The process, however, of figuring out where you fit when you aren't in the expected mold can be very tough. But at the end you reach an equilibrium for the most part.

If you are gay, not only are you going to have your world go sideways, I'm not sure there is any equilibrium to be reached that includes a temple worthy life. I have gay cousins on both sides of my family tree who are RMs. One male and one female. I know that we say that this is just a cross for them to bare and that they shouldn't have intimate committed relationships that are homosexual. This has always had the ring of truth to me in theory. And yet, I think those here who are pointing out that in the real world people simple don't choose a celibate life and the equilibrium they ultimately reach almost never includes the church are right.

I don't know the solution.

[MikeWaters]

In just suggesting that there might be a connection, I brought out the haters.

Without any evidence they outright reject the hypothesis. And then call me unscientific, when I didn't even say it was causal, I merely suggested it is possible.

More disgusting tripe on this board.

[MikeWaters]

While I would respect UtahDan's opinion more if the gay relatives were siblings, parents, or children, I will have to give his opinion some measure because he has dealt with it, but presumably from a distance.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

In just suggesting that there might be a connection, I brought out the haters.

Without any evidence they outright reject the hypothesis. And then call me unscientific, when I didn't even say it was causal, I merely suggested it is possible.

More disgusting tripe on this board.

You're not an innocent troll here. Suggesting there may be a connection without a scintilla of evidence shows a bias. And you know better than most of the genetic component in suicidal tendencies. The studies on causal links are very tenuous as I understand it.

For scientist to make a suggestion without a scintilla of evidence is irresponsible.

I've heard and read so many urban myths. Utah culture does this and that, and then you suggest LDS culture is somehow is causally connected to gay suicide. That is just too much of a troll. Then you call somebody who rightfully identifies bullshit for what it is as a "hater". Are you getting paid to do this? Or do you simply fancy yourself brighter than the rest of us?

It's a nice rhetorical ploy but it doesn't fly. Try trolling harder. If you're so transparent in the future you'll stop attracting comment.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

True I would think. I think there is a struggle that a lot of young LDS guys go through from the time they are mid teens to mid twenties. Lots of guys simply follow the plan and serve a mission, go to a church school, and get married. There are lots, however, who can't or don't serve a mission, have to come home early, then struggle to fit in. Or maybe they struggle to find a spouse and struggle to fit in.

Then for the most part I believe they realize how many other people there are like them and their world isn't quite so upside down any more. The process, however, of figuring out where you fit when you aren't in the expected mold can be very tough. But at the end you reach an equilibrium for the most part.

If you are gay, not only are you going to have your world go sideways, I'm not sure there is any equilibrium to be reached that includes a temple worthy life. I have gay cousins on both sides of my family tree who are RMs. One male and one female. I know that we say that this is just a cross for them to bare and that they shouldn't have intimate committed relationships that are homosexual. This has always had the ring of truth to me in theory. And yet, I think those here who are pointing out that in the real world people simple don't choose a celibate life and the equilibrium they ultimately reach almost never includes the church are right.

I don't know the solution.

Isn't the solution for gay members to exit? I can't see any other pragmatic solution for them. This is not a recommendation for the Church to ask them to exit, but what the Church requires is too difficult in reality to ask of people. Here live celibate. Not going to happen.

And you're not going to find a theological position that justifies gay sex. So it's an impassable position for churches such as the LDS Church.

Thus the only real life solution is to exit the Church, as a personal choice, not as a request by the Church.