I listened to the Beck talk again

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Single males need to reach out to others.

I did. I not only reached out but touched. I had to give up my recommend for six months.

[Tex]

[My mother] took longer than most women to find her husband, but during her single years she had devoted her life to progress. Though it was uncommon at the time, she was university educated and advancing in a career. Following her marriage, children arrived in quick succession; and in a short span of years, she was the mother of a large family. All the knowledge she had acquired, all her natural abilities and gifts, all her skills were channeled into an organization that had no earthly bounds. As a covenant-keeping daughter of God, she had prepared all her life for motherhood.

...

[A woman with a "mother heart"] gains as much education as her circumstances will allow, improving her mind and spirit with the desire to teach what she learns to the generations who follow her.

...

"Whatever principle of intelligence [she] attain[s] unto in this life, it will rise with [her] in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through [her] diligence and obedience than another, [she] will have so much the advantage in the world to come" (D&C 130:18–19). [brackets in original]

...

In my experience I have seen that some of the truest mother hearts beat in the breasts of women who will not rear their own children in this life, but they know that "all things must come to pass in their time" and that they "are laying the foundation of a great work" (D&C 64:32–33). As they keep their covenants, they are investing in a grand, prestigious future because they know that "they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever" (Abraham 3:26).

...

Covenant-keeping women with mother hearts know that whether motherhood comes early or late; whether they are blessed with a "quiver full" of children here in mortality or not; whether they are single, married, or left to carry the responsibility of parenthood alone—in holy temples they are "endowed with power from on high" (D&C 38:32), and with that endowment they receive the promised blessings and are "persuaded of them, and embraced them" (Hebrews 11:13).

Julie Beck, April 2004 General Conference.

She who hath ears to ear, let her hear.

http://lds.org/conference/talk/displ...439-26,00.html

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by BYU71

I did. I not only reached out but touched. I had to give up my recommend for six months.

I set them up, you knock them down.

[Judge Smails]

Listen, I'm thankful to Cougarguard because until today, I had no idea Sister Beck's talk had ruffled so many feathers. In fact, I make the semiannual joke with Mrs. Smails to wake me up when the RS/Primary/YW counselor is done speaking, but this time around I listened, and I was very impressed (as was Mrs. Smails).

I'm a lifetime Mormon, returned missionary, living in Idaho with a stay at home mom for a wife and 5 children under the age of 9. That said, I'm usually pretty sensitive to how others might view a talk even if I tend to fall in with the rank and file, but apparently I was way off on this one.

I'm pretty sure every doctrine taught by the brethren has been consistent throughout the years and is a softer version of "a woman's place is in the home", generally with exceptions (methinks it was the lack of exceptions in Sister Beck's talk that has everyone's collective panties in a bunch) One of those softer versions is taken from the Proclamation on the Family:

"Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children."

Clearly, there are situations where a woman needs to be in the workforce. And absolutely women should get as much education as possible - I believe the Brethren have been consistent with both of these principles, but they should be "primarily responsible for the nurture of their children".

Sister Beck set the bar awfully high, I realize, but I believe the Savior said "Be ye therefore perfect". Where's the uproar over that one?

Does anyone think the Savior thinks we'll be perfect starting this week? Do you think Sister Beck thinks we will close down all MTC's and replace them with mini-MTCs?

What's wrong with proclaiming the ideal? I think that's all Sister Beck did and to that I say kudos.

and Go Cougars.

[jay santos]

You have a smug style and look down at people due to your high self appraisal of your intellect and have a way of subtly, yet intentionally, insulting people with it. But I will try to avoid going there with you.

Originally Posted by Archaea

There are some very bright women, who stay home, ignore their education and perform beyond admirably. I do not doubt it.

And there are women who in such circumstances find ways to sharpen their intellects without formal education, I do not doubt it.

Let's not confuse the education aspect of this. I am not favoring women ignore their education. The church does not tell women to ignore their education. In fact the opposite. I'm mostly speaking representing my wife and people like her, and she is a BYU grad.

Originally Posted by Archaea

However, if I were a woman, I'm not bright enough that my intellect would be adequately sharpened without formal education and without the stresses of the workplace. Whether I'm a better or worse person because of it, who knows. But my skills are sharpened through the choices I've made.

I don't agree you need the stresses of the workplace to hone your intellect. It's not like a stay at home mom sits on her ass all day. There are a lot of variety and challenges. CB is full of professional, working men. CG thinks they're a step above CB, intellectually. I don't see much here on CG that impresses me, intellectually, beyond what I see from my wife and other women in my life who are stay at home mom's.

Originally Posted by Archaea

Many of our women have less sharp skills because of the choices they've made.

I have less sharp skills because I read SI on the john and not Dostoevsky. Women who are at home are sharpening the skills for what Julie Beck says matters most--nurturing children.

Originally Posted by Archaea

I don't accept Beck's premise that the best place for all women is in the home. Some may find it the best place if circumstances permit, but many may not.

I agree because I don't believe in absolutes, but you can replace all with most. If you don't believe it's the best place for most women and most families, if circumstances permit, then we can argue that point. It's clear to me the church teaches that, but that may not be entirely relevant. And it's an essential premise for my entire perspective.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by Judge Smails

Listen, I'm thankful to Cougarguard because until today, I had no idea Sister Beck's talk had ruffled so many feathers. In fact, I make the semiannual joke with Mrs. Smails to wake me up when the RS/Primary/YW counselor is done speaking, but this time around I listened, and I was very impressed (as was Mrs. Smails).

I'm a lifetime Mormon, returned missionary, living in Idaho with a stay at home mom for a wife and 5 children under the age of 9. That said, I'm usually pretty sensitive to how others might view a talk even if I tend to fall in with the rank and file, but apparently I was way off on this one.

I'm pretty sure every doctrine taught by the brethren has been consistent throughout the years and is a softer version of "a woman's place is in the home", generally with exceptions (methinks it was the lack of exceptions in Sister Beck's talk that has everyone's collective panties in a bunch) One of those softer versions is taken from the Proclamation on the Family:

"Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children."

Clearly, there are situations where a woman needs to be in the workforce. And absolutely women should get as much education as possible - I believe the Brethren have been consistent with both of these principles, but they should be "primarily responsible for the nurture of their children".

Sister Beck set the bar awfully high, I realize, but I believe the Savior said "Be ye therefore perfect". Where's the uproar over that one?

Does anyone think the Savior thinks we'll be perfect starting this week? Do you think Sister Beck thinks we will close down all MTC's and replace them with mini-MTCs?

What's wrong with proclaiming the ideal? I think that's all Sister Beck did and to that I say kudos.

and Go Cougars.

Your background information, which is solid by the way, would be one reason why you were not upset nor saw a reason to be upset by the talk.

You probably don't understand why anyone gets bugged when single men are called out during conference either.

Also you live in Idaho.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by jay santos

You have a smug style and look down at people due to your high self appraisal of your intellect and have a way of subtly, yet intentionally, insulting people with it. But I will try to avoid going there with you.

You failed if that was your intent, but you are as brusk as they come, but I'm sure you're aware of that. So your proviso had the opposite of its stated purpose.

Originally Posted by jay santos

I agree because I don't believe in absolutes, but you can replace all with most. If you don't believe it's the best place for most women and most families, if circumstances permit, then we can argue that point. It's clear to me the church teaches that, but that may not be entirely relevant. And it's an essential premise for my entire perspective.

What I don't agree is I don't know. I don't know what current data shows, what the current trends within the desires of families and women are. I don't profess to know. It would require many sociological studies which I am not qualified to construct or perform.

We as a Church feel compelled to direct sociological structures without science to back it up. Do we need science in all aspects? No, but some wouldn't hurt.

If it's a social structure we desire, that's fine, but dictating it for all or most may not be fine. I just believe society has changed so much that structures ideal for the 1950s may no longer apply.

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You failed if that was your intent, but you are as brusk as they come, but I'm sure you're aware of that. So your proviso had the opposite of its stated purpose.

No, I really held back. I could have said I think you're as dumb as a brick, and you use big words and a meandering style with pointless references to physic, math, and philosophy, which you appear to have no understanding of, to cover it up. Compare that style to someone like my wife who actually has substance to her intellect and reasoning and it's laughable that you would insult someone like her.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Tex

Julie Beck, April 2004 General Conference.

She who hath ears to ear, let her hear.

http://lds.org/conference/talk/displ...439-26,00.html

If Requiem or anyone else would like to comment on whether this talk passes the "reaching out to all women" test, I'm open to listening.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

If Requiem or anyone else would like to comment on whether this talk passes the "reaching out to all women" test, I'm open to listening.

Can I invoke the "yeah, but what have you done for me lately?" clause?