For those of you who have experienced major doubts...

[scottie]

Originally Posted by exUte

additional information at the time or his perspective of the event changed as he grew older and he moved from being forgiven of his sins to what the impact of his vision of diety really entailed.

Perhaps, or perhaps not.

[Gifted Fish]

Originally Posted by exUte

additional information at the time or his perspective of the event changed as he grew older and he moved from being forgiven of his sins to what the impact of his vision of diety really entailed.

One more thing, how does one square the claim that Joseph was told not to join any church in the FV but then he joined or tried to join the Methodists in the ensuing years? He simply gained perspective on what this instruction actually meant over time? He didn't understand what he was told because he was only 14?

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Thanks for the great thread.

I don't see the need to resolve anything. Doubting and questioning can be very good, and are certainly preferable to closed-minded certainty. It's what you do with doubt and questioning that makes all the difference.

You should feel grateful for the little fever you've gotten from your RSR innoculation.


P.S.: Old Marvin Hill did a nice article on the First Vision stuff.

I'm way late here, but this was actually the hardest thing for me to get over: my idea that I had to be able to resolve things. Once I realized it was okay if I couldn't, things got easier.

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by Gifted Fish

One more thing, how does one square the claim that Joseph was told not to join any church in the FV but then he joined or tried to join the Methodists in the ensuing years? He simply gained perspective on what this instruction actually meant over time? He didn't understand what he was told because he was only 14?

He also lied about being persecuted for telling others about his vision.

If he was telling the first version of events (as modern Mormons claim) why would anyone in Palmyra persecute him?

Quinns book "Origens of Power" does a good job of explaining the sequence of events.

The facts show that he was never persecuted for telling others about his vision. His persecution all stemmed from his Gold Bible claims.

You are right that he changed the vision details when he needed to shore up his claims of supreme authority in Kirtland.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

He also lied about being persecuted for telling others about his vision.

If he was telling the first version of events (as modern Mormons claim) why would anyone in Palmyra persecute him?

Quinns book "Origens of Power" does a good job of explaining the sequence of events.

The facts show that he was never persecuted for telling others about his vision. His persecution all stemmed from his Gold Bible claims.

You are right that he changed the vision details when he needed to shore up his claims of supreme authority in Kirtland.

wow, I didn't see this coming from you.

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

wow, I didn't see this coming from you.

Nobody has ever tried to offer a good explanation for this obvious cannonized lie. Seems like a big deal to me, having lies in the scriptures. But if your cool with the BofM I guess this isn't such a big leap.

Arch is the only one to put forth a possiblility. I think he suggested that JS just blended together reasons for his persecution. Kind of like an old man trying to remember the glory days of his youth.

[MikeWaters]

If you have a strange argument. You say he was persecuted when he said he was persecuted. But you say his reasons were wrong. Were they religious reasons? Yes, he was persecuted for religions reasons. Were they related to heretical beliefs? Yes. Were they related to the claimed Restoration? Yes.

You're going to have to come with better. LOL.

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

If you have a strange argument. You say he was persecuted when he said he was persecuted. But you say his reasons were wrong. Were they religious reasons? Yes, he was persecuted for religions reasons. Were they related to heretical beliefs? Yes. Were they related to the claimed Restoration? Yes.

You're going to have to come with better. LOL.

"So it was with me, I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two personage, and they did in reality speak to me, and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision....and though they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me

Yeah that never happened.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by Taq Man

"So it was with me, I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two personage, and they did in reality speak to me, and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision....and though they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me

Yeah that never happened.

It never happened or you don't believe it happened?

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

It never happened or you don't believe it happened?

Eber Howe a rabid antimormon of Joseph's day went back to Palmyra to interview Joseph's neighbors, friends, townsfolk that knew him and his family. He was digging for dirt and all of them obliged him.

When I read the accounts I was expecting to read some heated commentary about his first vision since Joseph described being persecuted in the PofGP but it never came. Not one person even mentioned the first vision. They spoke of gold digging and lying about the gold plates but not one person who admitted they persecuted him mentioned the first vision as a motivating factor.

He lied.