For those of you who have experienced major doubts...

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by El Paso Coug

I continue to be involved in LDS activities and worship, but I don't believe the Church is true. My wife and Bishop know my position as well. Just my two cents.

Why did you bother telling your bishop? I think this would just strain your relationship with the Church and the ward.

I have a hard time understanding why people choose not to differentiate between philosophical truth (about life) and historical truth (whether someone really lived somewhere and really translated something or told a lie). Someone could prove to me that Joseph Smith was a blatant liar, and I'd still believe in a lot of what he stood for.

Personally, I love the Pearl of Great Price. Why should it matter whether it's a literal translation or not? Because it reduces Joseph Smith's credibility? Since when was Joseph Smith a credible Egyptologist? Anyone who expects JS to do a literal translation of a papyrus is off his/her rocker anyway. I pretty much expect anything JS said or wrote about ancient history to be inaccurate, but I don't see why this means that all JS's teachings are necessarily untrue. I'd be way more ticked off at the Bible for teaching that the earth was created in 7 days than the P of Great P for teaching that it was created in 7 periods, because the Bible is obviously dead wrong on that one.

Should inconsistencies among Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John negate everything that is contained in the gospels?

Should contradictions in science negate all of science?

Why does it have to be a dichotomy? Just because Joseph Smith was wrong doesn't mean he KNEW he was wrong. I'm convinced that Joseph Smith believed that his visions were happening--whether they actually happened or not, and even if the stories changed.

If you're going to continue attending Church, you might as well choose to believe in it on some kind of philosophical level. It'll make your life easier. I decided to go by the rules (mostly) on my mission for that very reason. No sense in creating trouble for yourself.

[Ma'ake]

The priesthood ban was a biggie for me when I left.

30 years later, the sheer volume of material & reason to doubt have sealed the deal, for me. I never was exposed to this information way back, but it confirmed for me my decision.

The Reason / Faith / Skepticism dichotomy & interplay are fascinating. There is a variety of blends of reason, faith & skepticism. I'm probably closer to the reason/skepticism area of that venn diagram, others tend toward the faith-trumps-contrary reason area.

I think it was David Bokovoy who said that when people encounter troublesome information about the church, they really just need to change their own paradigm(s).

Before the internet, the number of faithful who had knowledge of the more troubling aspects was comparatively small. Today, the wave of information about these topics is very troublesome, it seems to me, with a lot of the information coming from sources far outside the Sandra Tanner milieu of Mormon thought.

I genuinely admire those who can navigate through all this with faith intact. (I find similar challenges to my own faith, though my own paradigm is getting less definite, yet more bullet-proof, with time.)

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Ma'ake

The priesthood ban was a biggie for me when I left.

30 years later, the sheer volume of material & reason to doubt have sealed the deal, for me. I never was exposed to this information way back, but it confirmed for me my decision.

The Reason / Faith / Skepticism dichotomy & interplay are fascinating. There is a variety of blends of reason, faith & skepticism. I'm probably closer to the reason/skepticism area of that venn diagram, others tend toward the faith-trumps-contrary reason area.

I think it was David Bokovoy who said that when people encounter troublesome information about the church, they really just need to change their own paradigm(s).

Before the internet, the number of faithful who had knowledge of the more troubling aspects was comparatively small. Today, the wave of information about these topics is very troublesome, it seems to me, with a lot of the information coming from sources far outside the Sandra Tanner milieu of Mormon thought.

I genuinely admire those who can navigate through all this with faith intact. (I find similar challenges to my own faith, though my own paradigm is getting less definite, yet more bullet-proof, with time.)

No sadder words than "I know the LDS Church is true" or "I don't believer the Church is true" were ever spoken. In my view fixation on that dichotomy amounts to an unexamined life, whichever side of the divide you fall. This is why, as Waters has noted, I have such visceral disdain for most Mormon apostates.

One thing I know. We here are what we are because people have believed Christ died and rose from the dead. Myself being a seventh generation Mormon have to say something very similar about Joseph Smith and Mormons. It is the same for Muslims and Muhammad. What greater compliment could be paid to any religion? I love the study of religion because I love history, of examining who I am.

Once on this site a poster asked for some recomended books on "the history of the Catholic Church." I told him to get a book on the history of Western Civilization. That kind of myopia, of sheer ignorance, of chauvenism, is common among Mormons and Mormon apostates alike.

Only when one breaks out of the "is this church true?" box do they begin to understand what Einstein meant when he said:

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

It's tragic what Mormonism has done to believers and "recovering Mormons" alike.

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You're not familiar with Taqman, so you can't understand why we detest his kind.

He's like a mini Sandra Tanner, ignoring any favorable evidence and pointing out evidence he knows to be inaccurate and then he cries about being lied to.

Instead of manning up like Seattle and just being glib, he cries about his horrible psychological harm suffered at the hands of those mean, prevaricating Mormons. We beat him with little whips across his little back.

I challenge you to find one post from me claiming any "horrible psychological harm suffered at the hands of...Mormons." It was hard leaving the church to be sure but I never suffered because of the decision.

The exact opposite is my experience. All of my family (save 1 brother) are active Mormons and I still keep friendships with my LDS friends/neighbors. I never talk religion and they never bring it up.

Feel free to whip away Arch. I can take it.

[Taq Man]

Originally Posted by BYU71

You base your conclusion that he lied on that, weak, very weak. Perhaps these folks were most upset with the gold digging thing and that is why they emphasized it. How do you know no one even mentioned it.

I know because Howe had them write out statements and I've read them.

[T Blue]

Originally Posted by El Paso Coug

If anyone does a serious study of the origins of the Pearl of Great Price and the alleged "translation" in light of the papyri that were discovered in the late 1960s, the most logical explanation is that Joseph Smith's "translation" is a fraud. The only response LDS scholars can give (and Hugh Nibley has admitted as much) is that Joseph Smith's translation was inspired, but not meant to be a literal translation of the papyri. When you look at all of the circumstances and read numerous quotes from Joseph Smith about the translation of the Pearl of Great Price, this inspired translation theory is very hard to believe.

When you take all of the Book of Mormon problems into account as well, it makes it extremely hard to believe the restoration story. I graduated from BYU, served as AP in my mission, married in the temple, etc. etc. I continue to be involved in LDS activities and worship, but I don't believe the Church is true. My wife and Bishop know my position as well. Just my two cents.

That is just beautiful........

He was once a devout follower but no longer is, now he just wastes time doing LDS things to keep peace with his wife, and just in case they may turn out to be true after all, right?

Go ahead and deny the part about it just might be true, but why else would someone claim disbelief and then continue to spend time doing something they claim is false?

I guess you must be one of those whose programming just got a little crossed and you can't seem to just walk away from all of it and be at peace with the decision?

I was out of the church for a long time because I thought it was bunk, trust me when I say that My family and friends knew what I thought about the church. It was soooo fricking easy to just open the door and walk out.

Man up and tell the wife that you TRULY feel it is a waste of time to do LDS things, then tell the Bishop to stuff it with trying to get you back into the fold. If your convictions are correct you will feel ostracized for about, ohh, 30 seconds, then you will have every sunday off and a pay increase, and the ability to truly be free from the guilt associated with hanging around and doing something you know in your heart isn't true, correct?

I hope you will find the conviction to do what is the right thing El Paso man, it must be truly tough to be stuck hanging by the sack, knowing that you have some serious questions about whether it's true or not, yet not being able to shed yourself of the guilt associated with just opening the door and leaving.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by T Blue

That is just beautiful........

He was once a devout follower but no longer is, now he just wastes time doing LDS things to keep peace with his wife, and just in case they may turn out to be true after all, right?

Go ahead and deny the part about it just might be true, but why else would someone claim disbelief and then continue to spend time doing something they claim is false?

I guess you must be one of those whose programming just got a little crossed and you can't seem to just walk away from all of it and be at peace with the decision?

I was out of the church for a long time because I thought it was bunk, trust me when I say that My family and friends knew what I thought about the church. It was soooo fricking easy to just open the door and walk out.

Man up and tell the wife that you TRULY feel it is a waste of time to do LDS things, then tell the Bishop to stuff it with trying to get you back into the fold. If your convictions are correct you will feel ostracized for about, ohh, 30 seconds, then you will have every sunday off and a pay increase, and the ability to truly be free from the guilt associated with hanging around and doing something you know in your heart isn't true, correct?

I hope you will find the conviction to do what is the right thing El Paso man, it must be truly tough to be stuck hanging by the sack, knowing that you have some serious questions about whether it's true or not, yet not being able to shed yourself of the guilt associated with just opening the door and leaving.

For shame.

You manage to try to point El Paso to the door and exemplify Adam's "Sit down and shut up" all in one post.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

No sadder words than "I know the LDS Church is true" or "I don't believer the Church is true" were ever spoken. In my view fixation on that dichotomy amounts to an unexamined life, whichever side of the divide you fall. This is why, as Waters has noted, I have such visceral disdain for most Mormon apostates.

One thing I know. We here are what we are because people have believed Christ died and rose from the dead. Myself being a seventh generation Mormon have to say something very similar about Joseph Smith and Mormons. It is the same for Muslims and Muhammad. What greater compliment could be paid to any religion? I love the study of religion because I love history, of examining who I am.

Once on this site a poster asked for some recomended books on "the history of the Catholic Church." I told him to get a book on the history of Western Civilization. That kind of myopia, of sheer ignorance, of chauvenism, is common among Mormons and Mormon apostates alike.

Only when one breaks out of the "is this church true?" box do they begin to understand what Einstein meant when he said:

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

It's tragic what Mormonism has done to believers and "recovering Mormons" alike.

I was with you, SU, up until the last sentence. I don't think Mormonism does that to people. It certainly hasn't done it to me. If you replace "Mormonism" with Fundamentalism, your perspective becomes much easier to assert.

This is one of your better posts, I think.

[SteelBlue]

Originally Posted by T Blue

I hope you will find the conviction to do what is the right thing El Paso man, it must be truly tough to be stuck hanging by the sack, knowing that you have some serious questions about whether it's true or not, yet not being able to shed yourself of the guilt associated with just opening the door and leaving.

This is an attitude that I really can't understand. He doesn't believe so you just want him to get the hell out. That's very Christlike T. I'll bet you're a hell of a home teacher.

[T Blue]

Originally Posted by SteelBlue

This is an attitude that I really can't understand. He doesn't believe so you just want him to get the hell out. That's very Christlike T. I'll bet you're a hell of a home teacher.

Actually you missed the point of his previous post about how "his Wife and Bishop know where he stands"

When someone like this hangs around the church it is usually not for "promoting" the faith, in most cases they are there just to antagonize and bring doubt to others who might truly wish to be there.

People who once had belief and now feel compelled to "enlighten" others as to how they no longer believe are better off left out of the tent.

I once was one of them, I have first hand experience.

In my previous post I am merely calling the dude out that it's not that big of a deal to just walk out the door if you no longer believe, that the ward that he is in could probably do without a festering sore in their midst and to continue promoting something you calim you no longer hold true, is well........ Kinda sad if you ask me