"Hellenization of Christianity" a bad thing?

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Without reading his articles, I suppose there is some "tainting" of Christian thinking with Greek thought, specifically, it's focus upon empiricism and some of its sexuality. That would be the only reason I can imagine a Christian can bemoan association with Greek culture and thought.

Our society would not be as prevalent and successful without the development of Greek thought, or so I believe.

Beyond that, Hellenization of Christianity is itself what Talmage and others called a "great apostasy." More than just a mere tainting, don't you think? The concept of a great apostasy, I'm afraid, repudiates 3,000 years of history, which, for better or worse, made us what we are. It's not just that our society would not be as prevalent and successful without development of Greek thought; it's that our society is unimagineable without it. The same is true about Judaism, and the alloy of Judaism and Hellenism called Christianity. These are all the same statements.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Exactly. I think the reason this thread is being largely ignored is it demonstrates the absurdity of the very concept a "great apostasy." It's like saying it's a bad thing that your parents ever met one another, that you'd have been better off in some alternate universe.

What aspects were absurd?

Are you stating the LDS belief in the termination of the Twelve Apostles, together with a failure to reconstitute the Quorum is a misnomer?

The LDS concept of the Apostleship being lost is all but admitted but most of Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church doesn't even contest it, because none of the offices are "apostles", but rather bishops and cardinals.

I'm rusty on my Catholic Church history and will change that, but what aspects of apostasy were absurd?

To me, it's miracle, given the difficulty in teaching a broadbase of cultures, and the difficulty in diffusing teachings as much was preserved in terms of teachings. Only through modern transportation, recordings and communications is it possible for teachings to remain the same. Just the process of "copying" codices rendered the possibility of error very likely and common.

What exactly is your point? If I read Talmage's "Great Apostasy", I no longer remember its contents.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

The concept of a great apostasy, I'm afraid, repudiates 3,000 years of history, which, for better or worse, made us what we are.

What a vague statement. What exactly is that supposed to mean?

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

What aspects were absurd?

Are you stating the LDS belief in the termination of the Twelve Apostles, together with a failure to reconstitute the Quorum is a misnomer?

The LDS concept of the Apostleship being lost is all but admitted but most of Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church doesn't even contest it, because none of the offices are "apostles", but rather bishops and cardinals.

I'm rusty on my Catholic Church history and will change that, but what aspects of apostasy were absurd?

To me, it's miracle, given the difficulty in teaching a broadbase of cultures, and the difficulty in diffusing teachings as much was preserved in terms of teachings. Only through modern transportation, recordings and communications is it possible for teachings to remain the same. Just the process of "copying" codices rendered the possibility of error very likely and common.

What exactly is your point? If I read Talmage's "Great Apostasy", I no longer remember its contents.

...

Originally Posted by All-American

What you call "hellenization" we call "apostasy."

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

...

Didn't Martin Luther agree with distance by the Catholic Church and core policies? Or did I miss something there?

IMHO, it would have been impossible, given the status of transportation, communication and society for the pristine Christian Church to have remained the same. I stand in awe of the learning preserved by the successive societies that handed them down.

However, "apostasy" is probably a great misnomer, as I don't see anything which indicates peoples intentionally tried to lose the pristine doctrines, but rather they were trying often to find out what they were.

[All-American]

Seattle, do you wish that the Great Library at Alexandria had not been destroyed?

Wouldn't you be thrilled if it were able to be restored in its exact condition that it had before it burnt to the ground?

If so, then by your own argument, you are as ridiculous as we are.

You're painting with broad strokes here. We don't bemoan "Hellenization" in general. The Hellenization of the church itself we deem to have been a bad thing, tantamount to turning away from Christ's original teachings. That has no bearing on the 3,000 years of history.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by All-American

Seattle, do you wish that the Great Library at Alexandria had not been destroyed?

Wouldn't you be thrilled if it were able to be restored in its exact condition that it had before it burnt to the ground?

If so, then by your own argument, you are as ridiculous as we are.

I don't get your point. But I'll try to respond. Romans, Christians, and Muslims all may have sacked and/or had a hand in deliberate burning of the library. Caesar and other Romans apparently took many works back to Rome. The library also may have burned accidently, as such things oftend did in those days. There were numerous fires over time. In any event, it's true that Christians in late antiquity destroyed much of the Greeks' works and executed many philosophers. But they weren't Christians who appreciated their Hellenistic roots and cultuural DNA. They were like Mormons who repudiatat their Hellenistic roots and cultural DNA. In other words, it wasn't because of apostasy from Christ's pristine teachings that Christians killed philosphers and burned books. It was because of their apostasy from Hellenism. Same with the Muslims who may have done it. The Muslims are unfairly maligned, however, in this regard, becasue there may not have been much left of the library when Islam arose. In fact Hellenized Muslims in Islam's earlier days preserved a great many classical works, as we've discussed here.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I don't get your point. But I'll try to respond. Romans, Christians, and Muslims all may have sacked and/or had a hand in deliberate burning of the library. Caesar and other Romans apparently took many works back to Rome. The library also may have burned accidently, as such things oftend did in those days. There were numerous fires over time. In any event, it's true that Christians in late antiquity destroyed much of the Greeks' works and executed many philosophers. But they weren't Christians who appreciated their Hellenistic roots and cultuural DNA. They were like Mormons who repudiatat their Hellenistic roots and cultural DNA. In other words, it wasn't because of apostasy from Christ's pristine teachings that Christians killed philosphers and burned books. It was because of their apostasy from Hellenism. Same with the Muslims who may have done it. The Muslims are unfairly maligned, however, in this regard, becasue there may not have been much left of the library when Islam arose. In fact Hellenized Muslims in Islam's earlier days preserved a great many classical works, as we've discussed here.

I'm pretty sure you managed to miss both questions. Though I love that Christianity is now responsible for the burning of the Great Library at Alexandria.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Beyond that, Hellenization of Christianity is itself what Talmage and others called a "great apostasy." More than just a mere tainting, don't you think? The concept of a great apostasy, I'm afraid, repudiates 3,000 years of history, which, for better or worse, made us what we are. It's not just that our society would not be as prevalent and successful without development of Greek thought; it's that our society is unimagineable without it. The same is true about Judaism, and the alloy of Judaism and Hellenism called Christianity. These are all the same statements.

Some society would exist, it just wouldn't exist in its current form. Whether our society is better or worse, we can never know or appreciate.

To the extent Hellenic thought changed Christ's teachings in a way not intended, then that is apostasy. To the extent priesthood authority was lost, I don't see a relation to Greek thought. That would have been more a Roman effort during the first century, than a Greek effot.

Society would have existed, but we can't imagine its complexion without Hellenization.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

What a shame that a thread about demonic possession gets dozens of replies and a thousand hits and this subject, vital to how Mormonism differentiates itself and understanding ourselves, has no takers.

Perhaps folks are tired of discussing again and again what you feel is ridiculous.