*When I die

[MikeWaters]

I expect to find him laughing.

Assuming his sense of humor is anything like mine.

[SeattleUte]

"For God everything is beautiful, good, and just."

I read this quotation from an ancient Greek philosopher a while back. It took a momont for its profundity, its irony, its subversiveness to sink in. Think about the meaning of "everything" in the sentence. It's scary, but this quotation comes closest to summing up my view of what a god must be like of any I've read.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I expect to find him laughing.

Assuming his sense of humor is anything like mine.

That's a great song you're quoting.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

"For God everything is beautiful, good, and just."

I read this quotation from an ancient Greek philosopher a while back. It took a momont for its profundity, its irony, its subversiveness to sink in. Think about the meaning of "everything" in the sentence. It's scary, but this quotation comes closest to summing up my view of what a god must be like of any I've read.

The Mormon God is depicted quite different than this. By some descriptions (now being refuted by neo-Mormonism) he is a perfected man, who reached his level of power through obedience to eternal principles, that he is bound to. Which is very different than a god for whom "everything is beautiful, good, and just."

If God is some kind of yin/yang combination of opposing forces we call good and evil (i.e. "God" is both God and Satan), then the Greek conception would be correct. After all this is our existence, and in some ways, despite all the sordidness the whole chaotic system could be conceived as its own form of beauty and justice.

[Levin]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

After all this is our existence, and in some ways, despite all the sordidness the whole chaotic system could be conceived as its own form of beauty and justice.

I find this sentiment interesting, but misplaced in the context of your post about the nature of God. Works of art, to be beautiful, must be true. And to be true, they must contain pieces of the sordidness of our whole chaotic system, as you describe it. And so I grant you that beauty does not always equate with purity and goodness, but includes their opposites; that is, beauty has to be truthful. (That doesn't mean goodness and purity don't equal beauty either, just that they don't encompass beauty's entirety; likewise, all that is true is not beautiful).

But to then say that God is the yin/yang and a combination of good and evil is unnecessary, nor does it follow. God's ultimate gift to us, free agency, creates the sordidness and chaos. And the truth of that existence is beautiful in its own way. But that does not mean that God is the sordidness and chaos. There are still opposing forces in the chaos, and God is on one side, and someone else on the other.

Plus, let's be more precise: there is nothing beautiful about prejudice, deceit, bigotry, hate, selfishness. There is much that is beautiful about the struggle to overcome those things; the failing, but the getting up again, and then failing again, but getting up again . . . That is beautiful, and true, and interesting. But it does not mean that God is in the hate or in the selfishness. He is in the struggle to overcome those. But b/c he is involved in the struggle to overcome (that is, he's already overcome; but he's involved in our overcoming), that does not mean he is the hate, the bigotry, the selfishness, the laziness . . .

That's the problem with the Greeks. Actually, the Greeks didn't have the problem, it's pop interpretations of the Greeks (like yours) that have the problems -- imprecision and a smothering of ideas by trying to smooth out the difficulties by throwing everything in one box -- God.

[MikeWaters]

Existence is truth. Truth is beauty.

Ergo existence is beauty.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Levin

That's the problem with the Greeks. Actually, the Greeks didn't have the problem, it's pop interpretations of the Greeks (like yours) that have the problems -- imprecision and a smothering of ideas by trying to smooth out the difficulties by throwing everything in one box -- God.

NO. The problem is you importing the McDonald's of religions/Mormonism into a view of God expressed by an ancient Greek philosoher. The quotation perfectly sums up the gnostic/McCarthy view of God, and is really the only answer to the problem of evil. Maybe we had to experience bigotry to reach enlightenment on the races. I can't fathom any other path. Maybe life is precious and time is vital because it can all end violently and unjustly. I got the quote from this book.

http://www.amazon.com/There-Somethin...9013563&sr=1-1

According to the author, reputed to be the leading historian of philosophy in the world, Waters' reading is correct. Of course it is; this isn't that tough unless you're trying to reconcile it with your Christian dogma.

But ultimately, there has not been an original thought in Western metaphysics since ancient Greece. It's all a footnote to Plato, et al., including Christianity. Even the symbolism of Christ and the atonement are reused.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Existence is truth. Truth is beauty.

Ergo existence is beauty.

Really, however, the B of M's "opposition in all things" is a less elegant way of saying the same thing. The philosopher is Heraclitus. How about this quote: "An invisible harmony is stronger than a visible one." It was from Heraclitus that Cormac McCarthy got Judge Holden's famous saying, "god is war."

[Levin]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

NO. The problem is you importing the McDonald's of religions/Mormonism into a view of God expressed by an ancient Greek philosoher. The quotation perfectly sums up the gnostic/McCarthy view of God, and is really the only answer to the problem of evil. Maybe we had to experience bigotry to reach enlightenment on the races. I can't fathom any other path. Maybe life is precious and time is vital because it can all end violently and unjustly.

The only answer to evil is to say that God is evil, or more precisely, that God thinks evil is beautiful, good, and just? I understand what you mean, but I don't think it boils down to that.

To reach necessary truths, we often have to experience evil ourselves. Alas, we can't learn everything vicariously through literature. But all your statements say, e.g., "Maybe we had to experience bigotry to reach enlightenment on the races," is that experience is a great teacher. Well, good thing we have this life to gain experience, and surely "God" is pleased when we reach enlightenment through experience. But God was not in the bigotry or racism.

You believe the following has great harmony, logic, and elegance: "For God, everything is beautiful, good, and just."

I think the following contains just as much harmony, logic, and elegance: "For God, all experience that leads to enlightenment is beautiful, good, and just." God is in the overcoming; he's not in the hate. I actually don't think your Greek philosopher would greatly disagree with that. It's another way of saying the same thing.

Only advantage you have is the ability to locate the source of evil at God's doorstep. That's just an easy copout that imprecisely expresses the truth that "all these things shall give thee experience."

The harder and more truthful struggle is to find a source for the evil inside of yourself. Don't slough it off on God.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Levin

The only answer to evil is to say that God is evil, or more precisely, that God thinks evil is beautiful, good, and just? I understand what you mean, but I don't think it boils down to that.

To reach necessary truths, we often have to experience evil ourselves. Alas, we can't learn everything vicariously through literature. But all your statements say, e.g., "Maybe we had to experience bigotry to reach enlightenment on the races," is that experience is a great teacher. Well, good thing we have this life to gain experience, and surely "God" is pleased when we reach enlightenment through experience. But God was not in the bigotry or racism.

You believe the following has great harmony, logic, and elegance: "For God, everything is beautiful, good, and just."

I think the following contains just as much harmony, logic, and elegance: "For God, all experience that leads to enlightenment is beautiful, good, and just." God is in the overcoming; he's not in the hate. I actually don't think your Greek philosopher would greatly disagree with that. It's another way of saying the same thing.

Only advantage you have is the ability to locate the source of evil at God's doorstep. That's just an easy copout that imprecisely expresses the truth that "all these things shall give thee experience."

The harder and more truthful struggle is to find a source for the evil inside of yourself. Don't slough it off on God.

The God of Mormonism doesn't even comprehend evil. This is not a God with a power over all evil, i.e. doesn't have the power to destroy it, much less understand it.