"I know this church is true"

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Archaea

People feel convinced and firmly converted. Perhaps there are members who've actually met God but unless there are, my bet is that they have a firm emotional conviction of the veracity of the claims. Their life experiences have confirmed their beliefs and they're comfortable with what they know.

They will state this a confirmation of the Spirit, and perhaps they're right. In reality, it seems they have enough experiences which they've correlated and enough spiritual "confirmations" which they have received convincing them of the veracity of the claims.

The more I wrestle with the "knowledge" the less I feel comfortable ascribing to that concept.

I agree...I feel like the older I get, the less sure I am in my "knowledge". I wouldn't even know where to start in the list of things I've been sure about at some point in my life that I no longer believe.

[Indy Coug]

I'd like to give my nearly unreserved opinion that the core teachings and doctrines of the church have merit.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

I'd like to give my nearly unreserved opinion that the core teachings and doctrines of the church have merit.

That makes me all teary eyed indeed. Those sentiments expressed by Indy reach a more than moderate level of similar experience by me.

[Indy Coug]

Given the sufficiently large sample size, I have rejected the null hypothesis that the church is not true with an alpha level of 0.01.

[scottie]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

For as long back as I can remember, I've hated this phrase. It does nothing for me spiritually, and I've always felt a little alienated in a church where so many seem to know what for me is un-knowable.

That's not to mention the fact that the phrase itself is a little absurd. Obviously, an object can't be "true". But, if I look beyond that to what I assume they mean--that the principles of the Gospel are true--I'm still not sure that it's an honest statement. Do they mean ALL the principles of the Gospel? Or certain favorites? How do they feel about polygamy?

I guess in the Alma 32 sense, I can see how a principle of the Gospel that can be tried and tested, can be "known". For example, I know that compassion for others brings me joy. That is a principle of the Gospel. However, there are many principles of the Gospel that can't be known IMO--what happens after we die, that Christ died for my sins, that Joseph Smith was a prophet. We can have faith, hope, belief, etc, but in my opinion, it's not ever knowledge. And I'm not sure of any place in the Gospel where "knowledge" is required. Faith, yes. Knowledge, no.

I've always told myself that I can't judge others' testimonies. However, when they say something like "I know Christ lives", aren't they placing themselves, according to their own belief system, in a place where Joseph Smith said few men who have ever lived have attained, i.e. the ability to deny the Holy Ghost and become a son of perdition?

Does anyone else feel this way? I'm really not trying to nitpick here. To me, it's an important issue, in that I feel like it alienates people of other faiths, some of our own faith, and de-emphasizes the role of faith in our lives. Besides, it just seems dishonest. And even a little creepy.

Amen brother. It's almost as if saying, "I know ______ is true" is an unwritten rule when bearing your testimony. Imagine the reaction if you were to switch it up by saying, "I have faith that the Book of Mormon is true."

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Given the large sample size, I have rejected the null hypothesis that the church is not true with an alpha level of 0.01.

My appreciation for your geekiness is rising with each post.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Given the sufficiently large sample size, I have rejected the null hypothesis that the church is not true with an alpha level of 0.01.

My recognition of your geekiness is rising with each post.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by scottie

Amen brother. It's almost as if saying, "I know ______ is true" is an unwritten rule when bearing your testimony. Imagine the reaction if you were to switch it up by saying, "I have faith that the Book of Mormon is true."

Exactly. That statement would mean a lot more to me, but I can totally imagine someone getting up after and saying "I KNOW the BOM is true" in an effort to comfort or reassure the earlier testimony-bearer.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

Exactly. That statement would mean a lot more to me, but I can totally imagine someone getting up after and saying "I KNOW the BOM is true" in an effort to comfort or reassure the earlier testimony-bearer.

If it were disrespectful, it would be fun to have six or seven guys and gals get up.

First one gets up and says, "I have faith in the BoM principles."

Responding gets up, "I know the BoM to be true."

To which another rises, and states, "The Book of Mormon is a remarkable document which has increased my appreciation for Jesus Christ."

And have a bunch of rebutters to counter the onslaught from the mullahs.

[RockyBalboa]

Insert another useless reason to bitch and moan about the church here.................

By the way...I know the Gospel is true.