"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

[Sleeping in EQ]

Mark 15:34 is one of the most powerful and precious verses in all of scripture for me.

Why?

Because I've experienced it. I've felt God withdraw. I was essentially agnostic--and maybe even atheistic--for quite some time. I went to church, but my BS meter was going off constantly. And somehow, through SIRS standing by me and through sheer, excruciating endurance I have discovered that there is a morning where faith returns. In my world faith and truth are paradoxical and dialectical, but they are there. There is a ressurrection of the soul.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Mark 15:34 is one of the most powerful and precious verses in all of scripture for me.

Why?

Because I've experienced it. I've felt God withdraw. I was essentially agnostic--and maybe even atheistic--for quite some time. I went to church, but my BS meter was going off constantly. And somehow, through SIRS standing by me and through sheer, excruciating endurance I have discovered that there is a morning where faith returns. In my world faith and truth are paradoxical and dialectical, but they are there. There is a ressurrection of the soul.

It *is* a powerful verse. Especially for those of use who experience periods of doubt.

I've sometimes wondered exactly what is meant by the word forsaken in this verse. I believe there are several interpretations out there.

[Surfah]

I love this passage too. I wince at much of Skousen, but I always enjoyed his explanation of this passage. That this made the Savior's sacrifice ultimate. That up until this point His Father's spirit had sustained him through all of the scourgings, pain and suffering, and even in the Garden of Gethsemane. And now, having withdrawn himself from His Son, the atonement was near complete and the Son of Man hath truly descended below them all.

I can only imagine how difficult that must have been for the Father.

I don't believe that any of us will feel this sort of separation from our Heavenly Father. At least, He will never abandon any of us or withdraw from us unless by our own agency we choose to distance ourselves from Him. Kind of like that saying, "If you don't feel close to God, who moved?" I think this is one of the few if only instance where He "moved."

[Archaea]

The passage is poignant during times of doubt, which indubitably most of us experience. It is also poignant for me during times of self-recrimination. I have oft turned it on its head, asking, "My God, my God, why have I forssaken thee?"

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by surfah33

I love this passage too. I wince at much of Skousen, but I always enjoyed his explanation of this passage. That this made the Savior's sacrifice ultimate. That up until this point His Father's spirit had sustained him through all of the scourgings, pain and suffering, and even in the Garden of Gethsemane. And now, having withdrawn himself from His Son, the atonement was near complete and the Son of Man hath truly descended below them all.

I can only imagine how difficult that must have been for the Father.

I don't believe that any of us will feel this sort of separation from our Heavenly Father. At least, He will never abandon any of us or withdraw from us unless by our own agency we choose to distance ourselves from Him. Kind of like that saying, "If you don't feel close to God, who moved?" I think this is one of the few if only instance where He "moved."

Your comments don't address what I'm saying, that is, unless you're asserting that Jesus didn't have agency. Moreover, I am not speaking to the atonement aspect, but rather only to the separation. And in that regard, your opinion on the matter is inconsequential. I know what I've experienced (as much as anyone can), but hey, don't let that stop you from making sweeping pronouncements.

[TheSizzle36]

I like the verse because to me, it shows our Father's love for us. He wants us to grow and like that coach that is a pain and pushes us harder than we think we can go, so does our Father. Yet at the same time, he knows what we can and cannot handle, and won't push us above and beyond that.

Just my 2 cents.

[DrumNFeather]

Originally Posted by Archaea

The passage is poignant during times of doubt, which indubitably most of us experience. It is also poignant for me during times of self-recrimination. I have oft turned it on its head, asking, "My God, my God, why have I forssaken thee?"

Which is the case more often than not.

I recently heard that quote that Surfah used and it struck me for a number of reasons, especially when you look back on your past and see times when it is clear that you withdrew yet thought that it was God that had withdrawn.

[tooblue]

I would hope there are passages of scripture that speak to all of us with great power.

We live in intellectually perilous times. There is far too much knowledge of unknown or questionable origin available to each of us that pollute the soul. Pure knowledge and personal discovery are choked by fluid facts and flippant assertion.

On can choose to more actively swim in the fluidity of knowledge and be tossed about by the waves; however, we are all subject to its strong currents and we will all suffer periods of doubt, not merely by choice but because of mortal conditions that befall all of us.

A poignant scripture for me, though it lacks the drama of the words in Mathew, is found in the book of Jacob in the Book of Mormon:

"4:10 Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand. For behold, ye yourselves know that he counseleth in wisdom, and in justice, and in great mercy, over all his works."

[Surfah]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Your comments don't address what I'm saying, that is, unless you're asserting that Jesus didn't have agency. Moreover, I am not speaking to the atonement aspect, but rather only to the separation. And in that regard, your opinion on the matter is inconsequential. I know what I've experienced (as much as anyone can), but hey, don't let that stop you from making sweeping pronouncements.

Whoa, ease up there buddy. I wasn't commenting on your experience as much as I was commenting on the passage itself. I don't doubt the experience of separation you shared. I in fact have my own. But I recognize that in those instances in my life, it was me who distanced myself from God because of my choices, doubt, and unbelief. I was merely commenting that in this instance Christ did nothing by way of agency that would cause Heavenly Father to withdraw from Him. Rather Heavenly Father's withdrawl was voluntary as part of the atonement because Christ's perfect life never would have allowed it otherwise.

So yes I guess I was commenting on the atonement and how being "forsaken" here was a necessary element which is inconsequential to your thoughts on the personal separation you have experienced. My apology.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by surfah33

Whoa, ease up there buddy. I wasn't commenting on your experience as much as I was commenting on the passage itself. I don't doubt the experience of separation you shared. I in fact have my own. But I recognize that in those instances in my life, it was me who distanced myself from God because of my choices, doubt, and unbelief. I was merely commenting that in this instance Christ did nothing by way of agency that would cause Heavenly Father to withdraw from Him. Rather Heavenly Father's withdrawl was voluntary as part of the atonement because Christ's perfect life never would have allowed it otherwise.

So yes I guess I was commenting on the atonement and how being "forsaken" here was a necessary element which is inconsequential to your thoughts on the personal separation you have experienced. My apology.

Gotcha. No problem.