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Old 07-16-2007, 03:35 AM   #31
il Padrino Ute
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Sooner - you haven't been around enough to know that Seattle sees all religion - be it Christian, Islam, Judaism etc. - are all the same:

Backward and a waste of time.
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Old 07-16-2007, 04:02 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute View Post
Sooner - you haven't been around enough to know that Seattle sees all religion - be it Christian, Islam, Judaism etc. - are all the same:

Backward and a waste of time.
I think it's fair to say that all fanatics are essentially the same. The only debate in my mind concerns the definition of the word "fanatic."

Seattle might think that anyone who believes in God is a fanatic.
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Old 07-16-2007, 04:55 AM   #33
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So you're suggesting that Islamic societies are contributing something valuable to the world other than the meager material things that I mentioned?

America makes huge contributions to human knowledge and progress. Members of moderately religious (non-fanatical) subcultures contribute to that progress.
I don't think Islamic societies are presently contributing much of anything besides oil and carpets. But nor do I think America's prosperity is much due to Americans' religiosity, whether moderate or radical. It is due to America's preeminent values of supporting empiricism and economic and civil liberties--science and freedom--which are to a large extent in conflict with religion. Religion in America and elsewhere is to a large extent a relic of the past. Hence the extreme reactions of certain religious factions in our country and the Middle East. It is radicalism born of desperation.

The moderateness of religion in America that you reference is due to America's secular values rooted in the Constitution, not because American religions are inherently morally superior to Islam. If you could magically separate religion from America's secular culture which, as I suggested, is rooted in Classical culture and more immediately in the Constitution, not any religion, I submit you would not see a decline in America's standing as a world power or morality in America. America today represents in large measure a triumph over religion, and America's secular culture is what makes much of religion moderate in America. Absent that no American religion would support support basic civil liberties such as freedom of speech or even property interests any more than they have historically, and America would be as backward as any society in history that has been a true theocracy, whether it is Christian or Islamic.

I agree with your basic cricticisms of Islam in this age, but to suggest that America's virtues and prosperity compared to the Middle East's problems exist because our religious heritage is superior to Islam in any way is ahistorical and narrow minded.
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Old 07-16-2007, 05:06 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by SoonerCoug View Post
So you're suggesting that Islamic societies are contributing something valuable to the world other than the meager material things that I mentioned?

America makes huge contributions to human knowledge and progress. Members of moderately religious (non-fanatical) subcultures contribute to that progress.

I would agree with you if you refer to fanatically religious people.

Islamic societies do not make any significant contribution to humanity's knowledge base.
Religion has a long history of getting in the way of progress. A current example would be how the U.S. is getting left behind in stem cell research due to Bush's religious objections.
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Old 07-16-2007, 10:54 AM   #35
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[QUOTE=Archaea;101539]
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your sincere effort to justify usa dropping atomic bombs on japan which left a genetical catastrophe plus plenty of instantaneous casulties is getting nowhere ,so you would better not follow that path any more .



Did you miss my reference to the Islamic Renaissance?

From ninth century to about sixteenth century, but actually from about ninth to twelfth century, Islam contributed. In the modern era, its people are non contributing to the betterment of man.
so it has offered its own share of benefiting people and the world .
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Old 07-16-2007, 10:59 AM   #36
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I will soon wed a woman whose father having completed service in Europe was slated to as part of the first artilary division for the invasion of Japan had the invasion been continued WITHOUT the bomb. My own father, a Naval aviator, was also slated to fly fighter cover for the US Army during the planned invation, plans which were finally released under the FOIA a few years ago. Based on statistical probailities from that report, it is very ikely that one or both or those men would have lost their life without HIROSHIMA and NAGASAKI.

Let me be perfectly clear about your revisionist and pacifist ideals. They don't have meaning in the real world. They do have meaning in terms of who GOT to be born and who had fathers (or mothers) after the war was over. Thousands among generations of Japanese people were never born as the bomb ENDED their lines. Thousands of American lines were continued because the BOMB was dropped. I am here. They never were. I feel NO GUILT and NO SHAME over my presence.

I do feel complete and utter disgust when someone canot see the realities of war and when evil men make it and start it without counting the ultimate costs. AMERICA DID NOT START THE WAR ON ISLAM. It is however a war and we darn well better face the reality that if it's a fight they truly want to bring to us (as with 9/11) then it is a fight they better be prepared for and must be willing to accept that ultimately, we will not allow SATAN's plan of compulsory obsesience to survive, or any of his fallowers should they be so inclined to do us harm.

To quote the late apostle Bruce R. McConkie in his LAST public discourse and not long before drawing his own last mortal breath, "There is NO BUDDAH, there is NO CONFUCIOUS and there is NO ALLAH....."

SATAN demanded compulsory adhearance to his plan. He guaranteed GOD strict compliance and perfection. God said, "NO!" God clearly wanted us to choose to serve him and love him. Free Agency...there is none in ISLAM!

I was once very tolerant of ISLAM and I have many Muslim friends. But I am no longer tolerant of evil and it is truly an oppression and all such oppression that kills the light within it's people and destroys their hearts and returns to the bare and naked chest of men the work of hatred has no place in God's world. We should LOVE the people, but we must also see ISLAM for what it is, a shaken pillar of hate and deception. There was NO vision in the desert, only the delusions of a thirsty boy who found moisture and shelter from the sun in a cave.
i have a gut feeling that Osama Bin laden feels NO GUILT and NO SHAME over his presence either.

i read your post ,twic ,but i couldnot find any single point worthy replying ,so i would rather welcome you as a new member and be the first one who wishes you "happy marriage"

ps:i didnot have my caps lock jammed ,i just pasted his.
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:04 AM   #37
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Your Caps Lock key seems to be jammed.
it happens when people are in a big hurry to express thier hatred while at the same time they throw out the word "love" here and there just for fun!
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:28 PM   #38
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...There was NO vision in the desert, only the delusions of a thirsty boy who found moisture and shelter from the sun in a cave.
Do you realize how terribly ironic it is for you to take shots at a religion by pointing out the delusions of a young boy who claimed to see visions?
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:32 PM   #39
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Do you realize how terribly ironic it is for you to take shots at a religion by pointing out the delusions of a young boy who claimed to see visions?
On top of that, Muhammad was 40 years old when Gabriel visited him and told him all the Christian religions were corruptions of the original true gospel. Hardly a boy, especially in those days.
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Old 07-17-2007, 02:04 AM   #40
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Do you realize how terribly ironic it is for you to take shots at a religion by pointing out the delusions of a young boy who claimed to see visions?
I think one day Mohammed will be accepted as a prophet by the LDS people.

The only stories I like more than boys who see angels are watery tarts throwing around swords.
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