Study shows bankruptcy in Utah

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by BYU71

to church membership, which I am not inagreement with, I would like to know the following. If you are filing for bankruptcy and having your assets protected, are you allowed to pay tithing.

I would accept someones gambling winnings as tithing before I would money kept from filing bankruptcy. Of course I don't make the rules.

I don't completely understand the hostility towards members filing bankruptcy. Particularly when the main reasons for bankruptcy are injury or illness. I think it is an important safety net in our society. I also think as members we ought to be cautious passing judgment on those who are in dire straits.

My surmise is that this is an example of the familiar tendancy to take a correct principle (self-sufficiency) too far (judging those who rely on the aid of the collective). Like paying 15% tithing.

[SoCalCoug]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I don't completely understand the hostility towards members filing bankruptcy. Particularly when the main reasons for bankruptcy are injury or illness. I think it is an important safety net in our society. I also think as members we ought to be cautious passing judgment on those who are in dire straits.

My surmise is that this is an example of the familiar tendancy to take a correct principle (self-sufficiency) too far (judging those who rely on the aid of the collective). Like paying 15% tithing.

Amen. I know some very good people who have had to file for bankruptcy. I don't think you can make blanket criticisms without knowing the facts.

I'm sure someone will tell me I'm being too judgmental about the judgmental people.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I don't completely understand the hostility towards members filing bankruptcy. Particularly when the main reasons for bankruptcy are injury or illness. I think it is an important safety net in our society. I also think as members we ought to be cautious passing judgment on those who are in dire straits.

My surmise is that this is an example of the familiar tendancy to take a correct principle (self-sufficiency) too far (judging those who rely on the aid of the collective). Like paying 15% tithing.

If it is needed I am all for it. I also know of the situations where someone hides his assets with his wife or someone else and declares bankruptcy. Talk to guys in this state in the construction business and ask them if they have ever gotten nailed by an active LDS person who still has plenty of money but left them all up a creek. They have probably gotten nailed by others too. I know of one instance of a guy who lives up in the high rent district and basically files every 10 years. He is active in the church and everyone accepts he just has some poor business luck. My butt!!!!1

[SoCalCoug]

Originally Posted by BYU71

If it is needed I am all for it. I also know of the situations where someone hides his assets with his wife or someone else and declares bankruptcy. Talk to guys in this state in the construction business and ask them if they have ever gotten nailed by an active LDS person who still has plenty of money but left them all up a creek. They have probably gotten nailed by others too. I know of one instance of a guy who lives up in the high rent district and basically files every 10 years. He is active in the church and everyone accepts he just has some poor business luck. My butt!!!!1

I'm with you here. There's a big difference with someone who legitimately needs to file for bankruptcy, and those who abuse the system.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by BYU71

If it is needed I am all for it. I also know of the situations where someone hides his assets with his wife or someone else and declares bankruptcy. Talk to guys in this state in the construction business and ask them if they have ever gotten nailed by an active LDS person who still has plenty of money but left them all up a creek. They have probably gotten nailed by others too. I know of one instance of a guy who lives up in the high rent district and basically files every 10 years. He is active in the church and everyone accepts he just has some poor business luck. My butt!!!!1

An issue I have with the new reforms deals with the changes. One of the biggest causes are the proliferation of credit cards. Companies virtually throw them at people who have no business getting a credit card.

So when people used bankruptcy to discharge credit card debt, the banks ran to Congress to relieve the problem the banks had created. Now they're free to exonerate almost with impunity.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by BYU71

If it is needed I am all for it. I also know of the situations where someone hides his assets with his wife or someone else and declares bankruptcy. Talk to guys in this state in the construction business and ask them if they have ever gotten nailed by an active LDS person who still has plenty of money but left them all up a creek. They have probably gotten nailed by others too. I know of one instance of a guy who lives up in the high rent district and basically files every 10 years. He is active in the church and everyone accepts he just has some poor business luck. My butt!!!!1

So your objection is to those who commit fraud. I agree.

[marsupial]

Originally Posted by creekster

Really? What 'data'? Are you talking about per capita income? Does it adjust for family size?

This is an example of you finding what you are lookign for.

I don't have data, but Utah has a highly educated population and a limited number of jobs. Employers can pay less because there is always a qualified person who will accept less.

I believe the high number of bankruptcies in Utah has everything to do with the gargantuan homes carving up the mountain side and the brand new SUVs all over the roads. It has little to do with family size or tithing.

Also, my impression is that there is a prevalent "keeping up with the Joneses" attitude in Utah. Sure, this is everywhere, but when your next door neighbors are also your ward members it becomes magnified.

[SeattleUte]

Waters, let's split this off into a new Utah sucks thread and keep it on rollin.

[NorCal Cat]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

1. Crappy pay
2. Larger than average family size, requiring larger homes and other related increased costs
3. Tithing

I think Utahns are living on a thinner income margin than most Americans. That puts them in a position where adverse financial events can put them into bankruptcy faster than the average Joe.

That doesn't absolve the 'keeping up with the Joneses' group, which exist in every subpopulation, but I think there are a non-trivial number of people that are at risk given the 3 items above.

I think it's more a function of the new Suburban they have to buy every 5 years, the ski boat, the jet skis, etc.

[Goatnapper'96]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Utah is a poor state. It didn't sink in until years after I moved away from Salt Lake and took my second wife there, the first time she'd been there. Such experiences give you new eyes. Much of it is pretty oppressive and run down and quite hopeless, frankly, if not utterly banal.

Are you a polygamist?

Second, you have the be the oldest. I know you probably grew up comfortably and whatnot. But the one thing your upbringing deprived you of was enough asswhoopins. Gettin one's ass kicked frequently brings them great benefit and helps society to be short one more pretentious asshole.

Someday, you and I should hook up. I would kick your old ass out of principle. Lets do it in the next 10 years or so, past that I feel I would be too old.

I'll bring the Elders or Bronco Mendenhall as well, just for a little spiritual guidance for the both of us.