Iraqi Orphans Chained to Beds

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

I guess I meant to say that Iran is a more decent, functioning society than the present situation in Iraq, and I'm not sure if Iraq can hope to be higher functioning than Iran in the next 20 years.

What is your standard?

All negative press is suppressed within Iran, so how do you know, other than it is not war ravaged, and would be rebels are viciously and mercilessly annihilated a la Saddam Hussein.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

What proof do you have that a theocratic Iran is a "pretty decent society."

Saudi Arabia which practices the theocracy you so admire locked female children inside a schoolhouse because the religion's barbaric notions regarding the sexes.

Iran a decent society? That is a veritable hooter. Many of my clients are from there; it is not a decent society at the current time.

My argument for Iran's potential and relative decency is the westernization of its youth, and the fact that the theocratic regime promotes education much better than previous regimes. In other words, I believe the current regime to be a huge step forward from the Shah, and the theocratic quasi-democracy that they have has some real potential for moderation in the future.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

What is your standard?

All negative press is suppressed within Iran, so how do you know, other than it is not war ravaged, and would be rebels are viciously and mercilessly annihilated a la Saddam Hussein.

Loads of anecdotal evidence and interactions with Iranians both here and in Iran.

You're right, I don't have anything that solid...just word of mouth.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

My argument for Iran's potential and relative decency is the westernization of its youth, and the fact that the theocratic regime promotes education much better than previous regimes. In other words, I believe the current regime to be a huge step forward from the Shah, and the theocratic quasi-democracy that they have has some real potential for moderation in the future.

There have been significant studies showing how backward the education models are within all Islamic societies as those religious schools actually thwart thinking and thereby undermine the purpose of education. Basically the sole purpose of these religious schools is political indoctrination and radicalization of the younger peoples. I believe they are called madrasses. Until Iran adopts a secular form of education, I see it merely as a way to radicalize its political movement.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

There have been significant studies showing how backward the education models are within all Islamic societies as those religious schools actually thwart thinking and thereby undermine the purpose of education. Basically the sole purpose of these religious schools is political indoctrination and radicalization of the younger peoples.

My analogy would be the political indoctrination of citizens of the Soviet Union or China. There is a huge mix of good and evil. Good=more education and literacy. Bad=truth is mixed with falsehoods, and people aren't actually taught to think very critically.

Even though communism in the USSR and China is purely atheistic, I think the pattern of indoctrination and mind control is very similar to what goes on in Iran. Communism in the USSR and China is actually a religion (Lenin or Mao worship).

As you educate the population, the truth ultimately wins. The soviets already proved this, as Russians were carrying secret books (samizdat and tamizdat) that they were publishing themselves either within Russia or smuggling books in from the west...people eventually discovered the truth. But it was the education system promoted by the Soviets themselves that led to their downfall.

In China, the process has moved more slowly, especially since ~15% of the Chinese population is illiterate (compared to 0% in the Soviet Union). But the internet is changing China. You can't censor everything. I work with about 15 Chinese dudes, and you should see them read about Tiananmen Square. And when they see pictures of the tank guy and actually realize what happened there, they talk to each other and send emails to all their friends back home, and people find out the truth.

The very same thing goes on in Iran. There is a reasonable percentage of the Iranian population that is well educated, and the internet is everywhere in Iran. They try to censor FoxNews and Youtube, but much like samizdat and tamizdat in the Soviet Union, people find their way around the censorship. With an increasingly westernized and educated youth, I believe that Iran can only become more moderate.

On the other hand, I suppose that you could make an argument that a society that promotes education could also end up like Nazi Germany, where you have "educated" people believing in a very evil concept and wanting to destroy an entire race.

[BarbaraGordon]

Originally Posted by SoonerCoug

On the other hand, I suppose that you could make an argument that a society that promotes education could also end up like Nazi Germany, where you have "educated" people believing in a very evil concept and wanting to destroy an entire race.

Sooner (not that you deserve that name after that cheapshot you took at OU SOS today), I suppose you haven't heard yet: no references to Nazis or the holocaust allowed here. Rule strictly enforced.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Sooner (not that you deserve that name after that cheapshot you took at OU SOS today), I suppose you haven't heard yet: no references to Nazis or the holocaust allowed here. Rule strictly enforced.

I thought the holocaust was only denied in Iran.

[JohnnyLingo]

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Sooner (not that you deserve that name after that cheapshot you took at OU SOS today), I suppose you haven't heard yet: no references to Nazis or the holocaust allowed here. Rule strictly enforced.

C'mon... let's stay on topic here. I'm kinda surprised you're trolling for Tex here, Barbara. A bit out of character from what I've seen.

[SoonerCoug]

Originally Posted by JohnnyLingo

C'mon... let's stay on topic here. I'm kinda surprised your trolling for Tex here, Barbara. A bit out of character from what I've seen.

OK, back to topic.

Education promotes moderation. However, in very strict religions with more effective indoctrination (Iranian Islam or worldwide Mormonism), education is less good at moderating people.

However, Mormonism seems to have lots of flexibility, thanks to the concept of "continuing revelation." Thanks to emphasis on education and searching for truth as well as the "continuing revelation" concept, I believe that Mormonism has continually become more moderate over the last 50 years.

If an Islamic state promotes even semi-decent education in a variety of topics (as Iran does) then I believe that the people inevitably become more moderate over time. I think the gradual moderation of the Iranian government over the last 27 years is obvious. Sure, we hear the "Death to America" chants and talk about destroying Israel, but it sounds like they don't "officially" want to kill Rushdie anymore, so let's at least give them credit for that.

[SoonerCoug]

One more thing: the majority of college and university students in Iran are females.

So as sexist as it seems to make women walk around in bed sheets, they happen to educate their women quite well by middle eastern standards.