Saddam's Husein's classy execution - Page 4 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

creekster · 01-04-2007, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I think if executions were public and not 20 years after the fact, they might be more of a deterrent. Maybe not.

Prison is obviously not a deterrent. And we put people in prison. But I don't hear anyone clamoring to get rid of prison. Ok, no one but the far left, anyway.

It is not a deterrent when compared to life in prison. So why kill them? Why not lock them up and save the money of paying guys like SU to work on the appeals? In other words, with or without the DP, the murder raets are about the same. No deterrence. Given that prison for the rest of their lives stops recidivism (except perhaps among the prison population which should be two birds with one stone for DP advocates) there can be no reason to have the DP. Moreover if you think prison is no deterrent try eliminating them and see what happens to the crime rate.

Detroitdad · 01-04-2007, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creekster

It is not a deterrent when compared to life in prison. So why kill them? Why not lock them up and save the money of paying guys like SU to work on the appeals? In other words, with or without the DP, the murder raets are about the same. No deterrence. Given that prison for the rest of their lives stops recidivism (except perhaps among the prison population which should be two birds with one stone for DP advocates) there can be no reason to have the DP. Moreover if you think prison is no deterrent try eliminating them and see what happens to the crime rate.

I think that most people care less about detterence than they do about retribution. I agree with your argument, but argument does not go far when you are talking with people who want to use the DP because they believe that the bastards deserve it.

All-American · 01-04-2007, 04:54 AM

I am not particularly inclined to believe prison is a deterrent if the prisoners ever get out. It's a concrete Hilton where they get all of there contacts.

I think there are better ways to deal with crime that will never be entertained, simply because we feel the need to lock the SOBs up.

creekster · 01-04-2007, 05:06 AM

I will say this about the DP in the other side. WHen I clerked at a court after law school I worked on a capital case involving a child killer and molester. He confessed to the crimes after being arrested and the confession was corroborated by a long list of direct and circumstantial evidence. His confession is, without a doubt, the most sickening and horrifying thing I have ever read. He had no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Eventually, he asked that all effrots to appeal be stopped. After the minimally necessary appeals were completed his wishes were granted and he was executed. I am unaware of anyone that felt badly about it, although I am sure some people did. It seemed that even the Fervent DP opponents had little stomach for this particualr fight, however. The DP seems to have been the best option in this case for both soceity and the criminal. His crimes were so bad, he didn't even want to live with himself. Moreover, his case met the Gordon standard; the evidence was abotu as incontrovertible as evidence can be in an imperfect world and an imperfect system. Sometimes, I guess, it can work. On balance, however, it sems to me that it is better to have some guy like this living in his personal ehll in a prison cell than it is to make an innocent person face the hell of an unjust premature death.

creekster · 01-04-2007, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All-American

I am not particularly inclined to believe prison is a deterrent if the prisoners ever get out. It's a concrete Hilton where they get all of there contacts.

I think there are better ways to deal with crime that will never be entertained, simply because we feel the need to lock the SOBs up.

You and others seem to be confusing recidivism with deterrence. REcidivism is higher among criminals who have been incarcerated, the schools of crime idea. At the same time, many persons are deterred from committing crimes becasue of the threat of prison. Moreover, one must distinguish property crimes from violent crimes from murders, as these principles don't alwasy apply straight across each oif these types of crime. The point in this context,however, is that we have alternative punishments: life time imprisonment and the DP. The DP adds nothing to deterrence, prevention of recidivism or justice and offers only a mean type of retribution. So, life in prison seems to be a better option as it avoids expense, gives the state the moral high ground and if the state was wrong you can always let the guy out of prison, as oppsed to sending a mea culpa to his heirs.

il Padrino Ute · 01-04-2007, 05:34 AM

I would be willing to change my support of the death penalty if we would not only lock the murderer up for life with no possibility of parole, but that he is required to very hard labor for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week until he's dead.

BarbaraGordon · 01-04-2007, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creekster

...Moreover, his case met the Gordon standard; the evidence was abotu as incontrovertible as evidence can be in an imperfect world and an imperfect system. ...

That's funny. "The Gordon standard." I like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by creekster

So, life in prison seems to be a better option as it avoids expense, gives the state the moral high ground and if the state was wrong you can always let the guy out of prison, as oppsed to sending a mea culpa to his heirs.

Although I agree wholeheartedly with the argument, I thought a life term at Pelican Bay (or insert favorite prison here) was insanely expensive. Even moreso than the appeals process.

creekster · 01-04-2007, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

That's funny. "The Gordon standard." I like that.

Although I agree wholeheartedly with the argument, I thought a life term at Pelican Bay (or insert favorite prison here) was insanely expensive. Even moreso than the appeals process.

Not all of them are at a facility like Pelican Bay. Moreover, they are still sucking up the exepnse of living during an appeal, so we are talking about the margin between the end of the apppeals process and their natural (or unnatural) death. Honestly I have not kept abreast of the latest studies, so I am not sure how the expense issue plays out, but think it is pretty close. Perhpas SU cna chime in on this.

BarbaraGordon · 01-04-2007, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creekster

Moreover, they are still sucking up the exepnse of living during an appeal, so we are talking about the margin between the end of the apppeals process and their natural (or unnatural) death. ... Perhpas SU cna chime in on this.

From LexisNexis:
Studies show that it costs more to keep an inmate on death row and to put him or her to death than it does to keep him or her in jail for life. Cases that begin as capital trials - where the punishment being sought is the death penalty - are much more expensive than normal murder trials. The process is longer, tying up our courts for more time, which in turn costs us more money in taxes. In a recent study, Duke University researchers showed in North Carolina, capital cases costs an average of $2.16 million more per case.

Nice avatar pic!

creekster · 01-04-2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon

Nice avatar pic!

Thanks, but it is not art, and not even photojournalism; ask Mike. Any guesses as to where it is?

01-04-2007, 04:54 AM	#33
All-American Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,420	I am not particularly inclined to believe prison is a deterrent if the prisoners ever get out. It's a concrete Hilton where they get all of there contacts. I think there are better ways to deal with crime that will never be entertained, simply because we feel the need to lock the SOBs up. __________________ εν αρχη ην ο λογος

01-04-2007, 05:06 AM	#34
creekster Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: the far corner of my mind Posts: 8,711	I will say this about the DP in the other side. WHen I clerked at a court after law school I worked on a capital case involving a child killer and molester. He confessed to the crimes after being arrested and the confession was corroborated by a long list of direct and circumstantial evidence. His confession is, without a doubt, the most sickening and horrifying thing I have ever read. He had no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Eventually, he asked that all effrots to appeal be stopped. After the minimally necessary appeals were completed his wishes were granted and he was executed. I am unaware of anyone that felt badly about it, although I am sure some people did. It seemed that even the Fervent DP opponents had little stomach for this particualr fight, however. The DP seems to have been the best option in this case for both soceity and the criminal. His crimes were so bad, he didn't even want to live with himself. Moreover, his case met the Gordon standard; the evidence was abotu as incontrovertible as evidence can be in an imperfect world and an imperfect system. Sometimes, I guess, it can work. On balance, however, it sems to me that it is better to have some guy like this living in his personal ehll in a prison cell than it is to make an innocent person face the hell of an unjust premature death. __________________ Sorry for th e tpyos.

01-04-2007, 05:34 AM	#36
il Padrino Ute Board Pinhead Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the basement of my house, Murray, Utah. Posts: 15,941	I would be willing to change my support of the death penalty if we would not only lock the murderer up for life with no possibility of parole, but that he is required to very hard labor for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week until he's dead. __________________ "The beauty of baseball is not having to explain it." - Chuck Shriver "This is now the joke that stupid people laugh at." - Christopher Hitchens on IQ jokes about GWB.