Sniper video on CNN - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 10-20-2006, 12:26 AM

Showing multiple GI's getting shot.

It really brings the war home. You can imagine yourself out there, talking to some Iraqis, keeping a close watch, and suddenly the buddy next to you goes down. Or you go down.

The thing that really, really pisses me off is the Iraqis were not the people we thought they were. We thought they wanted peace. We thought they wanted democracy. We thought a lot of things.

And I'm sure a majority of Iraqis do want these things. But the forces of evil outnumber the forces of good in terms of power.

It hurts me to think of our GI's dying for a people that can't get their f(*#$$( act together. At a certain point, we will have to concede to ourselves that we have done our duty, we have liberated these people, but what they do with that opportunity is up to them. And if they can't fight their way to liberty, then we can't do it for them.

At the very least, get our guys off the streets. Our guys should be doing two things. Resting and killing. Resting at base. And killing on missions. Sitting on a freaking street corner, waiting to get killed? Driving up and down roads waiting to get blown up? We can't police the streets of Iraq. It's been long enough that its on the Iraqis to spill their own blood on these streets protecting the peace.

The reason there isn't a good plan is not because we are dumb. It's because we are completely powerless to bring peace to Iraq. It's up to the Iraqis. And the Iraqis won't get serious until we tell them "see you later, we're gone next month."

Cali Coug · 10-20-2006, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Showing multiple GI's getting shot.

It really brings the war home. You can imagine yourself out there, talking to some Iraqis, keeping a close watch, and suddenly the buddy next to you goes down. Or you go down.

The thing that really, really pisses me off is the Iraqis were not the people we thought they were. We thought they wanted peace. We thought they wanted democracy. We thought a lot of things.

And I'm sure a majority of Iraqis do want these things. But the forces of evil outnumber the forces of good in terms of power.

It hurts me to think of our GI's dying for a people that can't get their f(*#$$( act together. At a certain point, we will have to concede to ourselves that we have done our duty, we have liberated these people, but what they do with that opportunity is up to them. And if they can't fight their way to liberty, then we can't do it for them.

At the very least, get our guys off the streets. Our guys should be doing two things. Resting and killing. Resting at base. And killing on missions. Sitting on a freaking street corner, waiting to get killed? Driving up and down roads waiting to get blown up? We can't police the streets of Iraq. It's been long enough that its on the Iraqis to spill their own blood on these streets protecting the peace.

The reason there isn't a good plan is not because we are dumb. It's because we are completely powerless to bring peace to Iraq. It's up to the Iraqis. And the Iraqis won't get serious until we tell them "see you later, we're gone next month."

It is very upsetting. I don't agree with our invasion of Iraq, but I do think we have to do our best with the situation Bush dealt us. That involves making several changes:

1) increasing the number of military personnel over there. The only reason we haven't is because Bush is concerned about losing more ground in the polls before an election Republicans are going to lose anyways. Suck it up and do what needs to be done.

2) stop with the political interference. This does not mean ignore the rights of the people over there. It does mean that Bush should listen to what the generals say they need and then do it. They know far more about securing an area than Bush does.

3) begin the shameless propaganda. There is no reason we need to provide dissenting voices with a forum within Iraq. Take control of the media and use it to our advantage.

MikeWaters · 10-20-2006, 01:39 AM

I don't see how more troops help. A GI on every corner? We're going to put more fingers in the dike, thereby preventing civil war?

No way I send in more troops. We'd break the back of the military, and we should be looking to leave, not expand our presence.

il Padrino Ute · 10-20-2006, 01:43 AM

The best thing to do is to quit !@#!$%ing around and let those insurgents know that they are !@$%^ing with the wrong people and demonstrate what we are capable of doing. It won't win any friends - not that there are many that ant to bve our friend right now - and it may be morally wrong, but it would also send a message to Kim Jong Il to stop with the nuclear testing.

And if I need to say it - well, nuke 'em. As Booger said in Revenge of the Nerds after the Alpha Betas trashed their house: "I say we blow the !@#$%ers up."

MikeWaters · 10-20-2006, 01:57 AM

hard to kill the enemy when you don't know who or where they are.

and if you commit genocide, well, hard to argue they are better off all dead than with Sadaam.

Cali Coug · 10-20-2006, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I don't see how more troops help. A GI on every corner? We're going to put more fingers in the dike, thereby preventing civil war?

No way I send in more troops. We'd break the back of the military, and we should be looking to leave, not expand our presence.

In certain areas, a GI on every corner would be a good start. Right now we are playing whack-a-mole in Iraq. As one problem arises, we shift troops to that area. Then, surprisingly, trouble arises in the area troops just vacated.

We need more boots on the ground. I can't believe we ever let Bush get us into this disaster, but we are stuck with it now. Now, it is our disaster. Leaving accomplishes nothing.

MikeWaters · 10-20-2006, 02:33 AM

Leaving accomplishes something. It allows us to focus on more important things, and let the Iraqis sort it out for themselves.

Do you reall think we can turn this around? with what, double the number of troops? 50% more? Every sectarian murder fans the flames. We have idiots like Al-Sadr calling the shots. It will get worse before it gets better and there is nothing we can do to prevent that. More troops is ICU care for the person who ought to be in hospice. You delay the inevitable.

We need to train more police and troops? The same dudes that are going around in death squads? Right. I just don't believe that Iraqis can sing kumbaya at this point.

non sequitur · 10-20-2006, 02:46 AM

Iraq will never be a stable democracy. That's a pipe dream. I remember when the Shah of Iran was in power and we thought Iran was going to be our buddy in the mideast. Some people in this country cannot accept the fact that not everyone in the world welcomes democracy. Countries in the mideast despise us. They do not aspire to be like us. It's just a shame that so many have had to die in such a futile experiment.

Cali Coug · 10-20-2006, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non sequitur

Iraq will never be a stable democracy. That's a pipe dream. I remember when the Shah of Iran was in power and we thought Iran was going to be our buddy in the mideast. Some people in this country cannot accept the fact that not everyone in the world welcomes democracy. Countries in the mideast despise us. They do not aspire to be like us. It's just a shame that so many have had to die in such a futile experiment.

I am not arguing it ever will be a democracy. That was a bad idea from the get-go. Our history of "democratizing" nations is very, very lousy. You would think we would learn our lesson.

I am hoping for mere stability with whatever form of government emerges. If we insist on a democracy, we may very well wind up with a civil war.

Detroitdad · 10-20-2006, 03:21 AM

As I see it the only choices are too dramatically increase the boots on the ground, so you can do aggressive interdiction and simultaneous institution building, but I think this only workds if you are prepared to spend a lot of money, a lot more blood and a lot more years. Or you need to have a phased withdrawal. The status quo will almost certainly result only in loss of blood and treasure, without hope of payoff.

It seems to me that there is no political will to take the long term view (which I think is the best and most advantageous policy for US interests in the long term). Therefore I think that the only real choice is how soon we begin withdrawal.

10-20-2006, 12:26 AM	#1
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Sniper video on CNN Showing multiple GI's getting shot. It really brings the war home. You can imagine yourself out there, talking to some Iraqis, keeping a close watch, and suddenly the buddy next to you goes down. Or you go down. The thing that really, really pisses me off is the Iraqis were not the people we thought they were. We thought they wanted peace. We thought they wanted democracy. We thought a lot of things. And I'm sure a majority of Iraqis do want these things. But the forces of evil outnumber the forces of good in terms of power. It hurts me to think of our GI's dying for a people that can't get their f(*#$$( act together. At a certain point, we will have to concede to ourselves that we have done our duty, we have liberated these people, but what they do with that opportunity is up to them. And if they can't fight their way to liberty, then we can't do it for them. At the very least, get our guys off the streets. Our guys should be doing two things. Resting and killing. Resting at base. And killing on missions. Sitting on a freaking street corner, waiting to get killed? Driving up and down roads waiting to get blown up? We can't police the streets of Iraq. It's been long enough that its on the Iraqis to spill their own blood on these streets protecting the peace. The reason there isn't a good plan is not because we are dumb. It's because we are completely powerless to bring peace to Iraq. It's up to the Iraqis. And the Iraqis won't get serious until we tell them "see you later, we're gone next month."

10-20-2006, 01:43 AM	#4
il Padrino Ute Board Pinhead Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the basement of my house, Murray, Utah. Posts: 15,941	The best thing to do is to quit !@#!$%ing around and let those insurgents know that they are !@$%^ing with the wrong people and demonstrate what we are capable of doing. It won't win any friends - not that there are many that ant to bve our friend right now - and it may be morally wrong, but it would also send a message to Kim Jong Il to stop with the nuclear testing. And if I need to say it - well, nuke 'em. As Booger said in Revenge of the Nerds after the Alpha Betas trashed their house: "I say we blow the !@#$%ers up." __________________ "The beauty of baseball is not having to explain it." - Chuck Shriver "This is now the joke that stupid people laugh at." - Christopher Hitchens on IQ jokes about GWB.

10-20-2006, 02:46 AM	#8
non sequitur Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,964	Iraq will never be a stable democracy. That's a pipe dream. I remember when the Shah of Iran was in power and we thought Iran was going to be our buddy in the mideast. Some people in this country cannot accept the fact that not everyone in the world welcomes democracy. Countries in the mideast despise us. They do not aspire to be like us. It's just a shame that so many have had to die in such a futile experiment. __________________ ...You've been under attack for days, there's a soldier down, he's wounded, gangrene's setting in, 'Who's used all the penicillin?' 'Oh, Mark Paxson sir, he's got knob rot off of some tart.'" - Gareth Keenan

10-20-2006, 01:39 AM	#3
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	I don't see how more troops help. A GI on every corner? We're going to put more fingers in the dike, thereby preventing civil war? No way I send in more troops. We'd break the back of the military, and we should be looking to leave, not expand our presence.

10-20-2006, 01:57 AM	#5
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	hard to kill the enemy when you don't know who or where they are. and if you commit genocide, well, hard to argue they are better off all dead than with Sadaam.

10-20-2006, 02:33 AM	#7
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Leaving accomplishes something. It allows us to focus on more important things, and let the Iraqis sort it out for themselves. Do you reall think we can turn this around? with what, double the number of troops? 50% more? Every sectarian murder fans the flames. We have idiots like Al-Sadr calling the shots. It will get worse before it gets better and there is nothing we can do to prevent that. More troops is ICU care for the person who ought to be in hospice. You delay the inevitable. We need to train more police and troops? The same dudes that are going around in death squads? Right. I just don't believe that Iraqis can sing kumbaya at this point.

10-20-2006, 03:21 AM	#10
Detroitdad Resident Jackass Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Roswell, New Mexico Posts: 1,846	As I see it the only choices are too dramatically increase the boots on the ground, so you can do aggressive interdiction and simultaneous institution building, but I think this only workds if you are prepared to spend a lot of money, a lot more blood and a lot more years. Or you need to have a phased withdrawal. The status quo will almost certainly result only in loss of blood and treasure, without hope of payoff. It seems to me that there is no political will to take the long term view (which I think is the best and most advantageous policy for US interests in the long term). Therefore I think that the only real choice is how soon we begin withdrawal.