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Old 10-12-2006, 02:05 AM   #21
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That's a good point. I didn't mean it to make it more difficult for piolots of small aircraft, but more for air traffic controllers to be able to keep an eye for possible problems like this. I realize that the controllers have enough problems as is, but thius may have been avoidable had they known about it through their instruments.

I'm not familiar with the NY airspace, but ...

If a pilot is flying VFR, he need not ensure that the local air traffic controllers monitor his flight path. It is good policy to do so, but it is not mandatory. The controllers often track but unless the pilot makes voluntary contact, they have no way of contacting the pilot.
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Old 10-12-2006, 02:20 AM   #22
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I'm not familiar with the NY airspace, but ...

If a pilot is flying VFR, he need not ensure that the local air traffic controllers monitor his flight path. It is good policy to do so, but it is not mandatory. The controllers often track but unless the pilot makes voluntary contact, they have no way of contacting the pilot.
According to this story, there was a distress signal sent and the plane came out of some clouds and hit the building.

http://kutv.com/topstories/topstorie...284145246.html

Inexperienced pilot + apparently not so good weather and visibility = a very sad situation.

Yankess should stay away from private planes.
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Old 10-12-2006, 03:19 AM   #23
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You're changing slightly, but allow me to introduce a few concepts.

First, despite civilian expectations, no country has complete control or knowledge of its skies. No country possesses the technology or resources to employ sufficient technologies to patrol the skies.

Second, DC airspace is far more secure than almost any other airspace in the world. To compare NY with DC is unfair.

Third, I have not reviewed the restricted airspace rules for Manhattan, but without such knowledge I believe I could take off tomorrow from an adjacent airspace and fly above Manhattan VFR. I also believe it is highly likely this would go unnoticed by NORAD.

It may be even more alarming that the plane issued a distress call and NORAD still didn't know about it.

Fourth, there are holes in radar. To avoid unnecessary disclosures, nothing more will be said.

Fifth, not all pieces are automatically linked within NORAD and it takes time for reports to get to various personnel.


Your expectations are unreasonable, but have it your way, blame Bush, he should have seen it coming and contacted the media.
How do you turn this into "blame Bush?" Are you seeing this issue as a pro-Bush/anti-Bush argument? If so, that explains some things. I am seeing it as a secure airspace v. non-secure airspace issue.

As I said before, I don't know of an airport on Manhattan that would service small planes like this. I can only conclude (and I am sure the media will soon tell us) that he took off from off of Manhattan and wandered into their airspace.

I don't think it is unfair to compare NY airspace with DC airspace. Sure, DC is more secure. But NY, aside from DC, is likely the most watched airspace in the world. I am surprised that the head of NORAD wasn't alerted to the possible breach of that airspace security until he watched the tv.

It may be even more alarming that the plane issued a distress signal and NORAD still didn't know about it.
Is it really that easy to fly an airplane into a building on Manhattan?

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Old 10-12-2006, 03:43 AM   #24
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It may be even more alarming that the plane issued a distress signal and NORAD still didn't know about it.
Is it really that easy to fly an airplane into a building on Manhattan?
Yes and any place else.

Airspace security is a myth.

You could fly it into Red Square in Moscow undetected or Tiananmen Square if you did it right.
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Old 10-12-2006, 03:54 AM   #25
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Yes and any place else.

Airspace security is a myth.

You could fly it into Red Square in Moscow undetected or Tiananmen Square if you did it right.
ANd in fact, if you recall, a few years ago a kid named matthias Kessler from Germany, as I recall, did fly a cessna right into red square and land it.

ANyone that thinks NORAD or nayone else can keep track of every small private aricraft and be prepared to "do something' whenever it veers towards a city or below 500 feet is in dreamland. It cannot be done. There are a number of airports near manhattan, and this accident ocurred on the upper East side, right along the river. I don't care which party is in power, this sort of reconnaisance simply cannot be done at any reasonable cost.
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Old 10-12-2006, 04:00 AM   #26
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ANd in fact, if you recall, a few years ago a kid named matthias Kessler from Germany, as I recall, did fly a cessna right into red square and land it.

ANyone that thinks NORAD or nayone else can keep track of every small private aricraft and be prepared to "do something' whenever it veers towards a city or below 500 feet is in dreamland. It cannot be done. There are a number of airports near manhattan, and this accident ocurred on the upper East side, right along the river. I don't care which party is in power, this sort of reconnaisance simply cannot be done at any reasonable cost.

Matthias Kessler rides for T-Mobile; Mathias Rust flew into Red Square around 1987. Being a German studies major, I had no idea I was linking a famous German who also spent time in Russian jail.

Link because the Rust story was fascinating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust
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Old 10-12-2006, 04:52 AM   #27
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ANd in fact, if you recall, a few years ago a kid named matthias Kessler from Germany, as I recall, did fly a cessna right into red square and land it.

ANyone that thinks NORAD or nayone else can keep track of every small private aricraft and be prepared to "do something' whenever it veers towards a city or below 500 feet is in dreamland. It cannot be done. There are a number of airports near manhattan, and this accident ocurred on the upper East side, right along the river. I don't care which party is in power, this sort of reconnaisance simply cannot be done at any reasonable cost.
This sort of reconnaisance is being done right now- in DC. I don't think it is a huge stretch to expect the same in NYC, the financial capital of the world.

If it is truly this easy in NYC, we are in for some serious problems.
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Old 10-12-2006, 06:01 AM   #28
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This sort of reconnaisance is being done right now- in DC. I don't think it is a huge stretch to expect the same in NYC, the financial capital of the world.

If it is truly this easy in NYC, we are in for some serious problems.
No its not being done, not like you are asserting. In DC they have huge no fly zones. They eliminated all private traffic from National/Reagan airport. Even so, if you were determined, it would be almost impossible to stop you in a small plane from flying towards and into one of the symbolic buildings in DC. Why do you think the secret service has AA guns on the roof of the whitehouse? It isn't to try to shoot down a 747.

TO adopt similar measures in other cities, especailly somewhere like the metropolitan NYC area, would be very damaging to the livelihoods of many, as well as to the convenience of many others. It simply can't be done in any reasonable way. Planes fly up and down the east river all the time, as do helicopters. In order to allow NORAD enough time to recognize a risk to any building in manhattan and have enough time to do anything about it (remember, unlike the whitehouse there are no AA guns on top of most buildigns in NYC) the no-fly zone would probably have to stretch from massachusetts to Philadelphia, and even then it might not be enough.

I also found it quaint that you apparently beleived that NORAD has some sort of central database that keeps track of every flight's flight plan (although you now have been informed that many flights don't even file flight plans) and keeps tabs on all flights so that if they vary from these flight plans they can be shot down or intercepted by fighters. IF we scrambled fighters every time some yahoo in a cessna varies from his flight plan (assuming he filed one) our air force fighters would probabyl spend most of their time on this activity.

Now if we could spend enough on 'star wars' systems so we could zap these guys from space, it might be possible.
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Old 10-12-2006, 06:03 AM   #29
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Matthias Kessler rides for T-Mobile; Mathias Rust flew into Red Square around 1987. Being a German studies major, I had no idea I was linking a famous German who also spent time in Russian jail.

Link because the Rust story was fascinating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust
Rust, not Kessler. A little slip of the cycling toungue. That's not Freudian, is it?

I assumed you knew about and were referring to Rust, but I wasn't sure some of the younger set here knew who you meant. It was a remarkable story. At the height of the cold war this kid flies right into stinking Red Square. Aamzing
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Old 10-12-2006, 06:20 AM   #30
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Rust, not Kessler. A little slip of the cycling toungue. That's not Freudian, is it?

I assumed you knew about and were referring to Rust, but I wasn't sure some of the younger set here knew who you meant. It was a remarkable story. At the height of the cold war this kid flies right into stinking Red Square. Aamzing
I remember that happening and thinking that I would love to meet the kid and give him a high 5. A teenager completely embarrassed the Red Menace. You gotta love it.
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