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Old 10-04-2006, 08:32 PM   #1
All-American
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Default My take on the downtown development

This is certainly an interesting move by the Church. I don't believe for a minute that the church is lying or being misleading in any way when they say that tithing funds are not being used. That doesn't mean that they've got $2 billion to throw around just for fun. Here's the thing: this is not a $2 billion GIFT-- it is an INVESTMENT. As far as the investment goes, this may not be a slam dunk, but it certainly has great potential for significant success. The first three rules of playing the real estate game are location, location, location; and you can't get a much more viable location than the heart of downtown. The fact that others have not capitalized on this supposedly ideal location does suggest that there may be more obstacles which will have to be overcome in order for this to work, but certainly, the potential is there.

I do see some potential problems, however. The first potential concern I have is the exposure to criticism. We are all fairly well aware that a first draft is rarely, if ever, as good as the final result, but that through critical evaluation and exposure to opposing thought, the final product is one that all can approve of. I worry that the way in which the money is to be invested will not be subject to enough evaluation. The city won't object, being the primary benefactors. Internally, the church will have little opposition, as few are willing to challenge the church. It will basically be up to the church to internally audit itself-- which may result in a product that did not do as much good as it could have.

The second problem may be an even bigger issue. When the church involves itself in extra-ecclesiastical projects such as this, there's the risk of dragging its image through the mud. We all saw the result of the main street plaza episode, for example: what started out as a simple land purchase and the construction of a small park was labeled a breach of first amendment rights, and the good that was done is marred to this day. I suspect that many of the protestors we see at conference would not be there if it weren't for plazagate. Now, as the church will own residential, commercial, and office space, how much will it attempt to impose upon those entities? Fusnik already pointed out the sale of alcohol, which I suspect will take place. Will people be upset by the apparent hypocrasy?

Or, for example, the already stated intent of forcing closure on Sundays. Tell me if this scenario is not plausible: a business owner, responding to an increase in demand and attempting to accomodate is customers, tries to keep his shop open on Sunday. The church is then forced to decide between statuatory neglect, which would weaken their position, or expelling the tenant, who did not honor his contract. As a result of the action, a lawsuit is taken up by the ACLU and others who question the right of the church to enforce their morals upon the business owners. The Church wins the lawsuit, since it is private property (and will doubtlessly make sure the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed, after the main street debacle), but in the meantime, papers all over the country are wondering why the church is trying to enforce the Sabbath Day commandment and what it is doing trying to buy up Salt Lake City in the first place. This has the potential for a public relations nightmare if not properly handled.

I have no problem with the church making this investment, but I hope that they are able to keep above the fray.
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:38 PM   #2
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Those smarter than I could answer these questions:

Is the church going to sell office suites? If they do, can they include a provision disallowing the business to open on Sundays?

How is the church going to attract restaurants without the ability to serve alcohol? Do chain restaurants allow for each store concessions concerning their menu?
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:41 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All-American View Post
This is certainly an interesting move by the Church. I don't believe for a minute that the church is lying or being misleading in any way when they say that tithing funds are not being used. That doesn't mean that they've got $2 billion to throw around just for fun. Here's the thing: this is not a $2 billion GIFT-- it is an INVESTMENT. As far as the investment goes, this may not be a slam dunk, but it certainly has great potential for significant success. The first three rules of playing the real estate game are location, location, location; and you can't get a much more viable location than the heart of downtown. The fact that others have not capitalized on this supposedly ideal location does suggest that there may be more obstacles which will have to be overcome in order for this to work, but certainly, the potential is there.

I do see some potential problems, however. The first potential concern I have is the exposure to criticism. We are all fairly well aware that a first draft is rarely, if ever, as good as the final result, but that through critical evaluation and exposure to opposing thought, the final product is one that all can approve of. I worry that the way in which the money is to be invested will not be subject to enough evaluation. The city won't object, being the primary benefactors. Internally, the church will have little opposition, as few are willing to challenge the church. It will basically be up to the church to internally audit itself-- which may result in a product that did not do as much good as it could have.

The second problem may be an even bigger issue. When the church involves itself in extra-ecclesiastical projects such as this, there's the risk of dragging its image through the mud. We all saw the result of the main street plaza episode, for example: what started out as a simple land purchase and the construction of a small park was labeled a breach of first amendment rights, and the good that was done is marred to this day. I suspect that many of the protestors we see at conference would not be there if it weren't for plazagate. Now, as the church will own residential, commercial, and office space, how much will it attempt to impose upon those entities? Fusnik already pointed out the sale of alcohol, which I suspect will take place. Will people be upset by the apparent hypocrasy?

Or, for example, the already stated intent of forcing closure on Sundays. Tell me if this scenario is not plausible: a business owner, responding to an increase in demand and attempting to accomodate is customers, tries to keep his shop open on Sunday. The church is then forced to decide between statuatory neglect, which would weaken their position, or expelling the tenant, who did not honor his contract. As a result of the action, a lawsuit is taken up by the ACLU and others who question the right of the church to enforce their morals upon the business owners. The Church wins the lawsuit, since it is private property (and will doubtlessly make sure the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed, after the main street debacle), but in the meantime, papers all over the country are wondering why the church is trying to enforce the Sabbath Day commandment and what it is doing trying to buy up Salt Lake City in the first place. This has the potential for a public relations nightmare if not properly handled.

I have no problem with the church making this investment, but I hope that they are able to keep above the fray.
The ZCMI center has always been closed on sundays, so it's not that big of a deal. Also, have you been in downtown on a sunday? I've had to work sundays downtown and most of the smaller restaurants are closed anyways because there just isn't that much business to be had on sunday in downtown salt lake.
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:41 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All-American View Post
This is certainly an interesting move by the Church. I don't believe for a minute that the church is lying or being misleading in any way when they say that tithing funds are not being used. That doesn't mean that they've got $2 billion to throw around just for fun. Here's the thing: this is not a $2 billion GIFT-- it is an INVESTMENT. As far as the investment goes, this may not be a slam dunk, but it certainly has great potential for significant success. The first three rules of playing the real estate game are location, location, location; and you can't get a much more viable location than the heart of downtown. The fact that others have not capitalized on this supposedly ideal location does suggest that there may be more obstacles which will have to be overcome in order for this to work, but certainly, the potential is there.

I do see some potential problems, however. The first potential concern I have is the exposure to criticism. We are all fairly well aware that a first draft is rarely, if ever, as good as the final result, but that through critical evaluation and exposure to opposing thought, the final product is one that all can approve of. I worry that the way in which the money is to be invested will not be subject to enough evaluation. The city won't object, being the primary benefactors. Internally, the church will have little opposition, as few are willing to challenge the church. It will basically be up to the church to internally audit itself-- which may result in a product that did not do as much good as it could have.

The second problem may be an even bigger issue. When the church involves itself in extra-ecclesiastical projects such as this, there's the risk of dragging its image through the mud. We all saw the result of the main street plaza episode, for example: what started out as a simple land purchase and the construction of a small park was labeled a breach of first amendment rights, and the good that was done is marred to this day. I suspect that many of the protestors we see at conference would not be there if it weren't for plazagate. Now, as the church will own residential, commercial, and office space, how much will it attempt to impose upon those entities? Fusnik already pointed out the sale of alcohol, which I suspect will take place. Will people be upset by the apparent hypocrasy?

Or, for example, the already stated intent of forcing closure on Sundays. Tell me if this scenario is not plausible: a business owner, responding to an increase in demand and attempting to accomodate is customers, tries to keep his shop open on Sunday. The church is then forced to decide between statuatory neglect, which would weaken their position, or expelling the tenant, who did not honor his contract. As a result of the action, a lawsuit is taken up by the ACLU and others who question the right of the church to enforce their morals upon the business owners. The Church wins the lawsuit, since it is private property (and will doubtlessly make sure the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed, after the main street debacle), but in the meantime, papers all over the country are wondering why the church is trying to enforce the Sabbath Day commandment and what it is doing trying to buy up Salt Lake City in the first place. This has the potential for a public relations nightmare if not properly handled.

I have no problem with the church making this investment, but I hope that they are able to keep above the fray.

I agreed with you up until the end. FWIW, the church has already said alcohol will be sold by restaurants. They are getting around any sensitive issues by selling the restaurant properties so they don't own the place selling the alcohol.

As for the Sabbath issue, nobody will try to open on a Sunday against the terms of the lease. They will go into the lease with eyes wide open. My concern is more that major retailers won't want to sign a lease unless they can open on Sunday, which could, conceivably, force the church to allow Sunday operations. A retraction of their position would be embarrassing and would expose them to claims that they place money before belief. Perhaps they will sell the major anchor properties as well to skirt this issue, but I doubt it.

In the end, I imagine they will find willing participants, just as Meir and Frank was willing to buy ZCMI knowing they would be closed on Sundays.

It will annoy people for a decade, and then I would guess the church will sell off the entire property (or a large portion of it) anyways, making it a moot issue.

With all of the people living down there, the church will have a hard time closing things down on Sundays long term (particularly the Harmon's grocery store). A competitor grocery store could open a block away and make a killing (and effectively shut Harmon's down) by opening 7 days a week. Perhaps the city council will get involved with zoning restrictions for additional grocery stores to prevent something like that, but then it exposes the church to charges of manipulation.

No matter how you look at it, the church is getting into a minefield in the long term with this property. They are capable of avoiding any big issues, but one little slip and people will pounce.

That makes me applaude their efforts all the more.
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:42 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewth8tr View Post
The ZCMI center has always been closed on sundays, so it's not that big of a deal. Also, have you been in downtown on a sunday? I've had to work sundays downtown and most of the smaller restaurants are closed anyways because there just isn't that much business to be had on sunday in downtown salt lake.

That will change with several thousand people moving in to the new housing being planned.
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewth8tr View Post
The ZCMI center has always been closed on sundays, so it's not that big of a deal. Also, have you been in downtown on a sunday? I've had to work sundays downtown and most of the smaller restaurants are closed anyways because there just isn't that much business to be had on sunday in downtown salt lake.
I've not been downtown on a Sunday. I don't even go down that much during the weekdays. Isn't that the reason they're doing this project in the first place?
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