Law schools: BYU 41, Utah 45

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Most lawyers I've met hate their work. And no they aren't fighting for any "liberties" or "fighting the man" or "helping the oppressed" or anything like that.

They are doing drudgery for the man and they hate it and hate themselves.

I love being a lawyer.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Most lawyers I've met hate their work. And no they aren't fighting for any "liberties" or "fighting the man" or "helping the oppressed" or anything like that.

They are doing drudgery for the man and they hate it and hate themselves.

Most doctors I've met despise lawyers.

[MikeWaters]

I have one friend, in particular, who as a lawyer seems to like his work. But he is far different than the average lawyer--he started out as an assistant DA, and then quit to start his own practice with another established lawyer, and is a kind of jack-of-all-trades.

Most of the lawyers I know are young LDS guys who work for the big firms, and have to log billable hours.

What do I care if you are miserable? It's not like you didn't know what you were getting yourself into. Some people likely deserve misery--and many of those are lawyers.

I imagine that the typical NYU law graduate ends up with a hefty bill at the end of their education, given the tuition and cost of living. I'm not sure what the average debt load is, but I am guessing substantial.

This leads to substantial pressure to take high-paying jobs. And of course, these are often the jobs that lead to soul-sucking unhappiness. All of that "good" stuff that lawyers do, that SU talks about, none of that pays.

Typical job trajectory--first year associate at big firm, log x number billable hours. Wash, rinse, repeat for a few years, maybe switching to another big firm. After about 5 years of this, leave the big city and return to Utah firm, at less pay, less billable hours, but same kind of work, in general. Live out end of life, the end.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I have one friend, in particular, who as a lawyer seems to like his work. But he is far different than the average lawyer--he started out as an assistant DA, and then quit to start his own practice with another established lawyer, and is a kind of jack-of-all-trades.

Most of the lawyers I know are young LDS guys who work for the big firms, and have to log billable hours.

What do I care if you are miserable? It's not like you didn't know what you were getting yourself into. Some people likely deserve misery--and many of those are lawyers.

I imagine that the typical NYU law graduate ends up with a hefty bill at the end of their education, given the tuition and cost of living. I'm not sure what the average debt load is, but I am guessing substantial.

This leads to substantial pressure to take high-paying jobs. And of course, these are often the jobs that lead to soul-sucking unhappiness. All of that "good" stuff that lawyers do, that SU talks about, none of that pays.

Typical job trajectory--first year associate at big firm, log x number billable hours. Wash, rinse, repeat for a few years, maybe switching to another big firm. After about 5 years of this, leave the big city and return to Utah firm, at less pay, less billable hours, but same kind of work, in general. Live out end of life, the end.

Very hefty cost, yes. There is the loan repayment assistance program if you want to get a job that's better for the soul than the pocketbook, though. The financial incentive is still to go with the high paying job, but at least the "noble" stuff is not financially impossible, should one be so inclined.

Different strokes for different folks, Mike. There are people who would be miserable wearing a white coat that love the field of law. There are people who wouldn't be able to stand soul-sucking legal work that find satisfaction sticking needles in people. Luckily, there are openings in both fields.

[ChinoCoug]

The President, though being a lawyer himself, acknowledged the need for more engineers and fewer lawyers.

He got his JD from Chicago, and its program incorporates economic analysis into every class. He understands full well that lawyers just transfer wealth, and don't create it. Engineers, on the other hand, multiply wealth.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

The President, though being a lawyer himself, acknowledged the need for more engineers and fewer lawyers.

He got his JD from Chicago, and its program incorporates economic analysis into every class. He understands full well that lawyers just transfer wealth, and don't create it. Engineers, on the other hand, multiply wealth.

and doctors keep engineers healthy.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

and doctors keep engineers healthy.

And lawyers help create and maintain a society wherein Doctors and engineers can practice their craft.

There's nothing wrong with the concept of interdependence.

And didn't Obama get his JD from Harvard?

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by All-American

And lawyers help create and maintain a society wherein Doctors and engineers can practice their craft.

There's nothing wrong with the concept of interdependence.

And didn't Obama get his JD from Harvard?

my bad, he taught at Chicago. So nevermind what I just said. But he still understands his economics well.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by All-American

And lawyers help create and maintain a society wherein Doctors and engineers can practice their craft.

There's nothing wrong with the concept of interdependence.

And didn't Obama get his JD from Harvard?

Obama was law review editor, famously, at Harvard. He was later a professor of sorts at U. of Chicago (I say "of sorts" because it is not clear to me that he was actually an academic who contributed to his field, other than teaching and writing autobiographies).

No one is saying there shouldn't be lawyers. We are saying there are too many. And that they are overvalued.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Obama was law review editor, famously, at Harvard. He was later a professor of sorts at U. of Chicago (I say "of sorts" because it is not clear to me that he was actually an academic who contributed to his field, other than teaching and writing autobiographies).

No one is saying there shouldn't be lawyers. We are saying there are too many. And that they are overvalued.

A doctor saying there are too many lawyers is like a fly saying there are too many spiders.

How does one determine that there are too many lawyers? Or that they are overvalued? Typically, these are factors determined by simple supply and demand. Has the market let us down?