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Old 01-21-2009, 03:46 PM   #1
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Default Free Expression? Not in Holland.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7842344.stm
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Old 01-21-2009, 07:14 PM   #2
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Is it the Dutch that really don't have any anti-terrorism laws?

If so, then what's happening to this particular person in your link isn't really a surprise.
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Old 01-21-2009, 08:50 PM   #3
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The tensions between the Dutch Muslims and the Dutch mainstream are enough to make Americans look like monolithic by comparison. I think at this point the primary objective is to prevent full-scale street warfare from breaking out. They don't want to risk this guy's words inciting violence in a country that has already suffered so many casualties from this tension.
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Old 01-21-2009, 09:38 PM   #4
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It is interesting to note the immigration of Muslims into Europe and around the world.

One thing that is immenently clear is that their immigrants, hold tight to the culture they have come from, and would appear that even though displaced to a foreign land, maintain tight bonds to the "motherland" so to speak.

This has had a very destabalizing effect in all of Europe. Holland? Muslims? That country on the brink of strife and internal turmoil. Germany, France, England...have so many Muslims that cling to beliefs that would undermine the very country they've moved too.

If push comes to shove, would these Muslims fight against the country, or go along with subversive plots that would come from their birthplace vs. standing with the country they've moved too?

America...in the past...when people moved to our country, they were integrated and became Americans. Not so much anymore, as even here, we compartmentalize cultures, and don't stress becoming part of the melting pot anymore.

It's disturbing to me, and I can see how the countries of the world are fractionalized and could crumble easily as there are so many within their own borders who don't necessarily maintain the same disposition/loyalty/beliefs that a citizen should have.

The West may "win the battle" against terrorism...but, the war may be lost due to immigration and birthrates.
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Old 01-21-2009, 09:41 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Borg View Post
It is interesting to note the immigration of Muslims into Europe and around the world.

One thing that is immenently clear is that their immigrants, hold tight to the culture they have come from, and would appear that even though displaced to a foreign land, maintain tight bonds to the "motherland" so to speak.

This has had a very destabalizing effect in all of Europe. Holland? Muslims? That country on the brink of strife and internal turmoil. Germany, France, England...have so many Muslims that cling to beliefs that would undermine the very country they've moved too.

If push comes to shove, would these Muslims fight against the country, or go along with subversive plots that would come from their birthplace vs. standing with the country they've moved too?

America...in the past...when people moved to our country, they were integrated and became Americans. Not so much anymore, as even here, we compartmentalize cultures, and don't stress becoming part of the melting pot anymore.

It's disturbing to me, and I can see how the countries of the world are fractionalized and could crumble easily as there are so many within their own borders who don't necessarily maintain the same disposition/loyalty/beliefs that a citizen should have.

The West may "win the battle" against terrorism...but, the war may be lost due to immigration and birthrates.
I don't buy into your assumptions.

How about rampant racism against Muslims preventing them from being more integrated?

Every single generation the majority in America have complained that the latest immigrant group is not / won't integrate culturally with the rest of America. Italians, Irish, Mexicans, Chinese, etc. It's basically impossible NOT to be subsumed. And usually when that happens, I would venture to say it is usually outside forces that are working against integration. Not the immigrant groups preventing it.
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Old 01-21-2009, 09:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaraGordon View Post
The tensions between the Dutch Muslims and the Dutch mainstream are enough to make Americans look like monolithic by comparison. I think at this point the primary objective is to prevent full-scale street warfare from breaking out. They don't want to risk this guy's words inciting violence in a country that has already suffered so many casualties from this tension.
This may the case, but in our culture that would be an insufficient basis to suppress free expression. The problem with Islam is that the radical elements of Islam justify murder and violence over words. That aspect of the radical elements of culture destabilize the rule of law.
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:48 AM   #7
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What does the US have that they or most countries don't have? The First Amendment. This country is nothing without it.
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Borg View Post
It is interesting to note the immigration of Muslims into Europe and around the world.

One thing that is immenently clear is that their immigrants, hold tight to the culture they have come from, and would appear that even though displaced to a foreign land, maintain tight bonds to the "motherland" so to speak.

This has had a very destabalizing effect in all of Europe. Holland? Muslims? That country on the brink of strife and internal turmoil. Germany, France, England...have so many Muslims that cling to beliefs that would undermine the very country they've moved too.

If push comes to shove, would these Muslims fight against the country, or go along with subversive plots that would come from their birthplace vs. standing with the country they've moved too?

America...in the past...when people moved to our country, they were integrated and became Americans. Not so much anymore, as even here, we compartmentalize cultures, and don't stress becoming part of the melting pot anymore.

It's disturbing to me, and I can see how the countries of the world are fractionalized and could crumble easily as there are so many within their own borders who don't necessarily maintain the same disposition/loyalty/beliefs that a citizen should have.

The West may "win the battle" against terrorism...but, the war may be lost due to immigration and birthrates.
There are tensions because Europeans have traditionally treated their immigrants very badly. That has generally not been the case here. I hope we never fall into that same trap.
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:50 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by MikeWaters View Post
I don't buy into your assumptions.

How about rampant racism against Muslims preventing them from being more integrated?

Every single generation the majority in America have complained that the latest immigrant group is not / won't integrate culturally with the rest of America. Italians, Irish, Mexicans, Chinese, etc. It's basically impossible NOT to be subsumed. And usually when that happens, I would venture to say it is usually outside forces that are working against integration. Not the immigrant groups preventing it.
Good point.
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Old 01-22-2009, 01:06 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by BlueK View Post
What does the US have that they or most countries don't have? The First Amendment. This country is nothing without it.
Right, but freedom of speech is constitutionally protected in the Netherlands, too. This is a matter of interpretation.
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